Why would we think that Saruman despatched the Crebain to Hollin?

Flammifer

Well-Known Member
I think this assumption is unlikely for the first-time reader. The first-time reader has no particular reason to associate Fangorn and Dunland with Saruman, nor to associate Saruman with spies. All the spies we have heard people being wary of have been Sauron's spies, not Saruman's. We have had many references to the possibility of Sauron's spies being a danger. We don't really have any reason to suspect Saruman of employing spies.

From what we have read so far in the book, the natural assumption is that the crebain (if (as seems clear) are 'spying out the land') are doing so on behalf of Sauron, rather than Saruman.

The conjecture that the crebain might be operating on behalf of Saruman is only likely to arise once the reader knows more, from later in the book, than the first-time reader would have as available impressions or evidence.
 
I think this assumption is unlikely for the first-time reader. The first-time reader has no particular reason to associate Fangorn and Dunland with Saruman, nor to associate Saruman with spies. All the spies we have heard people being wary of have been Sauron's spies, not Saruman's. We have had many references to the possibility of Sauron's spies being a danger. We don't really have any reason to suspect Saruman of employing spies.

From what we have read so far in the book, the natural assumption is that the crebain (if (as seems clear) are 'spying out the land') are doing so on behalf of Sauron, rather than Saruman.

The conjecture that the crebain might be operating on behalf of Saruman is only likely to arise once the reader knows more, from later in the book, than the first-time reader would have as available impressions or evidence.
The company's (Gandalf's) assumption (which is later borne out as true) that the Gap of Rohan isn't safe for them to pass through, in addition to the direction they are approaching from, supports an assumption of Saruman being behind the crebain. However, it doesn't settle the matter beyond doubt.

Additionally, the first time reader still knows relatively little about the world (as much as Sam does really) and so these crebain might be acting on their own behalf (foreign crows might act this way normally, but Strider's behaviour suggests otherwise), or on behalf of some other power that we haven't encountered yet (Saruman fits in this category, but we can't rule out others hence the questions from some about whether they might be working for Radagast.)

I think the first time reader is most likely to be left unsettled, without any obvious conclusions to draw, and that seems to be the intention of this scene. The lack of obvious conclusions then supports the upcoming debate between Gandalf and Aragorn over which path to take to cross the mountains; the first-time reader doesn't have any more knowledge than the company and so can't be biased as to which side to support in the debate.

The re-reader knows that Saruman is implicated geographically, but Sauron is implicated behaviourly. Both debate options have problems, while heading over to the coast and then south to the Belfalas before turning east would avoid many of the perilous encounters they later have; but likely introduce new ones or Eru might have nudged them onto that path.

The only-movie-watchers are probably scratching their heads wondering why Gandalf doesn't call a moth to summon a flight of Eagles...
 
Good thoughts Anthony,

I think the first-time reader probably assumes the crebain are sent by Sauron. He knows that Sauron is reported to utilize birds and beasts as spies. He knows that Rivendell is worried about Sauron's spies. He doesn't know that Saurman has any spies, nor any ability to command birds.

I think that readers who read on might eventually consider the possibility of Saurman having sent the crebain. However, we never see Saruman using them again, when it might have been useful for him. So, I think Sauron sending them remains a more probable hypothesis. Particularly, as we see a possible Nazgul on high in the next few days, and an attack by wargs, both of which are more associated with Sauron than with Saruman. So, if Sauron sent wargs and a flying Nazgul over Hollin, it is quite likely that he also sent the crebain.

Hypothesis: The Nazgul report back to Mordor in early January, after returning from disaster at the Fords of Bruinen. It is only then that Sauron knows that the Ring was in Rivendell. He does not have spies near Rivendell (as confirmed by Elrond's scouts). He needs spies there, and covering routes from there. He mobilizes Nazgul (now mounted on flying beasts), crebain, wargs, and other spies and sends them to Rivendell. On the way there, they will spy out the land. Some will remain around Rivendell to spy. Some will then scout the exit routes from Rivendell that were not covered on the way in.

If Saruman wanted to send out spies, why wait until January to send forth crebain? Gandalf escaped from Orthanc in mid September. Surely if Saruman had genocides of crebain to send out as spies, he would have sent them in September to blanket the Shire, the roads out of the Shire, Rivendell, and Lorien. The crebain not moving north until January seems to me to indicate it more likely that Sauron sent them after being alerted by the Nazgul after they struggled home to Mordor, that the Ring was last seen in Rivendell.

The timing seems to me to indicate that Sauron, rather than Saruman was the more likely commander of the crebain as spies.
 
Good thoughts Anthony,

I think the first-time reader probably assumes the crebain are sent by Sauron. He knows that Sauron is reported to utilize birds and beasts as spies. He knows that Rivendell is worried about Sauron's spies. He doesn't know that Saurman has any spies, nor any ability to command birds.

I think that readers who read on might eventually consider the possibility of Saurman having sent the crebain. However, we never see Saruman using them again, when it might have been useful for him. So, I think Sauron sending them remains a more probable hypothesis. Particularly, as we see a possible Nazgul on high in the next few days, and an attack by wargs, both of which are more associated with Sauron than with Saruman. So, if Sauron sent wargs and a flying Nazgul over Hollin, it is quite likely that he also sent the crebain.

Hypothesis: The Nazgul report back to Mordor in early January, after returning from disaster at the Fords of Bruinen. It is only then that Sauron knows that the Ring was in Rivendell. He does not have spies near Rivendell (as confirmed by Elrond's scouts). He needs spies there, and covering routes from there. He mobilizes Nazgul (now mounted on flying beasts), crebain, wargs, and other spies and sends them to Rivendell. On the way there, they will spy out the land. Some will remain around Rivendell to spy. Some will then scout the exit routes from Rivendell that were not covered on the way in.

If Saruman wanted to send out spies, why wait until January to send forth crebain? Gandalf escaped from Orthanc in mid September. Surely if Saruman had genocides of crebain to send out as spies, he would have sent them in September to blanket the Shire, the roads out of the Shire, Rivendell, and Lorien. The crebain not moving north until January seems to me to indicate it more likely that Sauron sent them after being alerted by the Nazgul after they struggled home to Mordor, that the Ring was last seen in Rivendell.

The timing seems to me to indicate that Sauron, rather than Saruman was the more likely commander of the crebain as spies.
I follow your logic.

A first-time reader isn't aware of a simple Sauron/Saruman dichotomy of opposition powers here.
There's no reason presented in the text that there couldn't be a third power that has previously been inactive:
Maybe Treebeard sent the crebain from Fangorn? Only a re-reader is aware of Treebeard, and recognises the silliness of the suggestion.
An ambitious Elf that disagrees with the outcome of the Council? There's been time to organise things, and following the party directly from Rivendell would be too suspicious.
An ambitious crow that overheard 'others' talking about the Ring and was tempted into making an attempt at possession.

These all seem silly by varying degrees to re-readers, but a first-time reader, with only the Hobbit (at most) to judge by, might consider some of these (and others I haven't thought of) perfectly possible.

All of that said, timing alone is insufficient to discount Saruman. The crebain can be Saruman's to command with the timing of their dispatch coming from Sauron.
Sauron could have dispatched the Nazgul and the wargs up the eastern side of the Misty Mountains, and told Saruman to be on the look-out for spies coming from the north on the western side (not mentioning the Ring, of course), and Saruman then sent the warning on to his Dunlending vassals. One or more of these vassals could have people that have trained these birds to a limited degree, which Saruman then took advantage of to perform the search guiding it with his will projection techniques (that we see used during the pursuit of the orcs across Rohan.)

If these are Sauron's spies why did we hear no reports of them around Gondor at any time?
If these are Saruman's spies why did we hear no reports of them around Rohan at any time?

Maybe they were there (in one or both places) and no reports were recorded; or these birds were perhaps used for this one mission alone.
Perhaps they flew until exhaustion and death; or when the search was completed they were released to their own devices, and there was insufficient food in the area to keep them all alive, resulting in a mass starvation; or they returned to the forests that they came from, having been considered of no further use.

My main point in all of this is that while we can develop theories to explain what we see in the text, there is insufficient evidence to declare one as the real explanation, and a first-time reader doesn't (yet) have most of the evidence we have.

So in the absence of 'one true explanation', what does the reader have? A sense of doubt and uneasiness that matches that of the company.
 
Hi Anthony,

I totally agree that the sense of doubt and uneasiness is the main effect JRRT is trying to create here.

However, if the first-time reader has any impression of who sent the crebain, I think the assumption is likely to be Sauron.

The reader has read many references to Sauron having spies. The reader has read that he uses birds and beasts as spies. The reader has not heard of Saruman using spies.

I think the Crebain being Saruman's to command, but the timing of their release being at the behest of Sauron is unlikely. The first-time reader does not suspect Sauron and Saruman of being in alliance. We know that Saruman says, "We may join with that power. It would be wise Gandalf. There is hope that way. Its victory is at hand; and there will be rich reward for those that aided it." However, the operative phrase here is 'we may'. It does not sound like Saruman has yet decided to join Sauron. Indeed, he has another plan, which he prefers. "The Ruling Ring? If we could command that, then the Power would pass to us."

We have no reason to suspect that Saruman would send out spies on behalf of Sauron.

If he had crebain spies, he would quite likely send them out on his own behalf, to seek out the Ring for himself. However, if Saruman commanded crebain spies, why wait until early January to send them out? He could well have sent them out in September, if he had them available to seek out the Ring for him. (Once he realized that Gandalf did not have the Ring on his person.) Saruman says that he will imprison Gandalf until he reveals where the One is, or "until it is found in your despite". This seems to indicate that Saruman intends to look for the Ring, and, if he commanded an army of crebain spies, this would be when he would send them forth.

I think that certainly to the first-time reader, and really even with all future knowledge, the first, and most obvious assumption should be that the crebain are commanded by Sauron.
 
My first impression was that it is Saruman. And, with that said, i read the books before i saw the movie
 
Surely if Saruman had genocides of crebain
First take: "huh? Could that be an autocomplete error?".
Second take: LOL!!
Third take: "not very PC. Should really not be laughing when Great Evil is referred to."

I think this is an example of a joke that Manny would tell Mike "is funny once" and Wyo would say "not funny at all".
 
"From what we have read so far in the book, the natural assumption is that the crebain (if (as seems clear) are 'spying out the land') are doing so on behalf of Sauron, rather than Saruman. "

If the reader was paying close attention to the Council of Elrond, and wore out the map page from looking at the map like I did, they would have seen how (relatively) close Isengard was. (Now I'm not sure which map I'm remembering... goes to grab book)

Man. These maps are different than the old Ballentine editions I read the first time. This has Peter Jackson movie pics on the cover. I remember the map changed from Fellowship to the others. Gondor and Mordor were more detailed in RotK.

Looks for the older map online...

No luck.

I do remember many things, like where I was when I read it the first time (camping). But it was a VERY long time ago.
 
"From what we have read so far in the book, the natural assumption is that the crebain (if (as seems clear) are 'spying out the land') are doing so on behalf of Sauron, rather than Saruman. "

If the reader was paying close attention to the Council of Elrond, and wore out the map page from looking at the map like I did, they would have seen how (relatively) close Isengard was. (Now I'm not sure which map I'm remembering... goes to grab book)

Man. These maps are different than the old Ballentine editions I read the first time. This has Peter Jackson movie pics on the cover. I remember the map changed from Fellowship to the others. Gondor and Mordor were more detailed in RotK.

Looks for the older map online...

No luck.

I do remember many things, like where I was when I read it the first time (camping). But it was a VERY long time ago.

Hi Abelardsjunk,

If you scroll on down through the threads on this forum, you will find that in July I posted a picture of the original map from the early hardback editions of 'The Fellowship of the Ring'. Hope it helps.
 
I will go find it, thank you! It turns out Corey had that original map in the very next episode. Hollin, Dunland, and Isangard are all marked. I wish I could remember what I thought about these that first time. I really did break the binding on the paperback with my thumb in the map. It fell open to the map page like my sister's copy of Wifey fell open to the dirty parts.
 
Hi AbelardsJunk,

Corey's map is not the original map. Just below the post on this forum where I posted a picture of the original map, you will find another post by me titled 'Corey, what map are you using?'

Corey's map is different (though not vastly different), and has some odd names and strange mistakes - mostly to do with map legends.
 
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