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JJ48
JJ48
Yeah, I'm beginning to think that might be best.
Odola
Odola
John LeCarre? Do not know of him. But are we here not to be talking? I have been one to think out of the box from kindergarden. Having been raised in my early childhood in a then communistic country I have a great need to challenge and not succumb to consensus just because it is the generally approwed view or just for peace's sake.
Odola
Odola
Do try to convince me with arguments and not just by telling me that I am cynical. It will not be easy. But still any reason to be talking about Tolkien is a good one? If we all agree, then what is there to talk about?
JJ48
JJ48
I guess my main issue is that so many of your arguments are not based on the book--and, in fact, actually contradict the book--to the point that it doesn't feel like we are talking about Tolkien any more. Rather, it starts sounding like we're discussing a completely different story that has nothing to do with Tolkien.
R
Rachel Port
Odola - John Le Carre wrote probably the best spy novels in English. Try finding The Spy Who Came In From the Cold if you want to get an idea.

Reading your posts about the meeting between Faramir and Frodo, I wondered if you were from a Communist country. We do want discussion, or at least I do.
R
Rachel Port
You were writing about a kind of militarism from a different time and place from LOTR. That's why I wondered. You created a military based on rigid conformity demanding constant suspicion and deception.
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R
Rachel Port
I found myself thinking of Communist countries (though that's probably a stereotype, and I apologize if it is) or other military dictatorships. Farimir is a character of strong integrity, and we couldn't find him in your comments.
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Odola
Odola
But does making him a sweet naive incompetent simpleton give him any justice? Or making his whole nation that of cowardly morons who do not dare to sent some scouts into the enemy's territory to find out when they can expect an attack?
R
Rachel Port
But Ithilien is enemy territory, taken by the Enemy so all the inhabitants left, and that's where the Dunadain of the North are scouting. And fighting. That's not cowardice.
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Odola
Odola
Will write you prvite message, will no longer use poor JJ48's profile board.
JJ48
JJ48
There's some irony in that question, in that from my point of view, Faramir letting suspected spies go simply because he told them a lie that wouldn't affect anything would make him quite the "incompetent simpleton".
JJ48
JJ48
As for the scouting, I would say that first of all, scouting isn't as simple as you make it out to be. The mountains around Mordor have very few entry points, and those are already closely watched. Even with Frodo, Sam, and Gollum, we read that the orcs already had a message reading, "Nazgûl uneasy. Spies feared on Stairs. Double vigilance. Patrol to head of Stairs."
JJ48
JJ48
And just a couple pages later, we read that the orcs spotted Gollum on his way to Shelob. Historically, before spy satellites and recon planes, a lot of spying was done by being able to blend in with merchants or travelers, but that's simply not an option with Mordor. (Stupid character limit.)
JJ48
JJ48
Furthermore, the Morgul Vale, in particular, is where the Nazgul reside. Keep in mind that during combat, men want to throw down their arms and flee whenever the Nazgul show up, and it takes a strong captain like Faramir just to keep them from running.
JJ48
JJ48
Alone, without a captain nearby, I think they'd be hard-pressed to find much of anyone who could bear to even go within sight of Minas Morgul for long, much less past it into Mordor. You may call that being "cowardly morons", but personally, I see it as evidence that there's a spiritual aspect to this war which is as important or moreso than the physical aspect.
Odola
Odola
that is exactly why I do think the nearest Gondorian entry point is not near Cirith Ungol, Minas Ithil was a Gondorian city, they had roads and parths there, even if they loosened their vigilance with time they still did have same infrastructure there build by people who had not yet forgotten Numenorian technology, so it could have easily outlasted millenia just like Orthank did.
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