Flammifer
Well-Known Member
In the last class there was a long discussion as to whether Elrond’s statement, “Had I a host of Elves in armour of the Elder Days, it would avail little”, was a reference to the Battle of the Last Alliance.
The question was, could that battle be what was referenced, as it was not in the Elder Days.,
This led me to wonder what a first-time reader had thought was meant by ‘The Elder Days’?
The first reference I remember is on Weathertop, when Strider is telling tales to the Hobbits. “He knew many histories and legends of long ago, of Elves and Men, and the good and evil deeds of the Elder Days.”
This is followed by Merry saying to Strider, “Tell us of Gil-galad”.
This would indicate that Merry probably sees no differentiation between tales of ‘The Elder Days’ and tales of Gil-galad. The first-time reader can also have no idea that tales of Gil-galad likely fall outside of ‘The Elder Days’.
The next reference to ‘The Elder Days’ that I recall is in Bilbo’s Earendil poem. “And over Middle-earth he passed and heard at last the weeping sore of women and of elven-maids in Elder Days, in years of yore.”
Here again, the first-time reader can only assume that ‘Elder Days’ just means ‘long ago’, rather than referring to a specific time period.
Then Elrond, twice, in the Council, refers to ‘The Elder Days’. “It recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days and the hosts of Beleriand.” Shortly thereafter, “But my memory reaches back even to the Elder Days.”
Neither of these really defines what ‘The Elder Days’ means. The first-time reader still assumes ‘long ago’.
So, I think, for the first-time reader, the objection, “but the Battle of the Last Alliance was not during the Elder Days”, just would not occur.
So, is ‘The Elder Days’ ever defined more precisely in TLOTR? Yes. At the start of Appendix B, “In the Fourth Age the earlier ages were often called the Elder Days; but that name was properly given only to the days before the casting out of Morgoth.”
However, to the first-time reader, (and, I suggest to the Hobbits being addressed), Elrond’s comment on a host of Elves in the armour of the Elder Days, would obviously suggest the Battle of the Last Alliance, and the question “but, but, but, that battle was not in the Elder Days!” just never would have occurred.
Would more frequent attention paid to the perspective of the first-time reader, have cut out a lengthy (and diversionary) segment of the class which was devoted to this question?
Any other references in TLOTR to ‘The Elder Days’ that readers can remember or find?
The question was, could that battle be what was referenced, as it was not in the Elder Days.,
This led me to wonder what a first-time reader had thought was meant by ‘The Elder Days’?
The first reference I remember is on Weathertop, when Strider is telling tales to the Hobbits. “He knew many histories and legends of long ago, of Elves and Men, and the good and evil deeds of the Elder Days.”
This is followed by Merry saying to Strider, “Tell us of Gil-galad”.
This would indicate that Merry probably sees no differentiation between tales of ‘The Elder Days’ and tales of Gil-galad. The first-time reader can also have no idea that tales of Gil-galad likely fall outside of ‘The Elder Days’.
The next reference to ‘The Elder Days’ that I recall is in Bilbo’s Earendil poem. “And over Middle-earth he passed and heard at last the weeping sore of women and of elven-maids in Elder Days, in years of yore.”
Here again, the first-time reader can only assume that ‘Elder Days’ just means ‘long ago’, rather than referring to a specific time period.
Then Elrond, twice, in the Council, refers to ‘The Elder Days’. “It recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days and the hosts of Beleriand.” Shortly thereafter, “But my memory reaches back even to the Elder Days.”
Neither of these really defines what ‘The Elder Days’ means. The first-time reader still assumes ‘long ago’.
So, I think, for the first-time reader, the objection, “but the Battle of the Last Alliance was not during the Elder Days”, just would not occur.
So, is ‘The Elder Days’ ever defined more precisely in TLOTR? Yes. At the start of Appendix B, “In the Fourth Age the earlier ages were often called the Elder Days; but that name was properly given only to the days before the casting out of Morgoth.”
However, to the first-time reader, (and, I suggest to the Hobbits being addressed), Elrond’s comment on a host of Elves in the armour of the Elder Days, would obviously suggest the Battle of the Last Alliance, and the question “but, but, but, that battle was not in the Elder Days!” just never would have occurred.
Would more frequent attention paid to the perspective of the first-time reader, have cut out a lengthy (and diversionary) segment of the class which was devoted to this question?
Any other references in TLOTR to ‘The Elder Days’ that readers can remember or find?