A new Hunt for Gollum

In the last episode Corey started discussing why all the scouting. Scouting the geopolitical situation of the journey ahead for two months is a bit strange for me. How much can that change since the other members of the council went through those lands, in a way that might be dangerous for a small company. And if so, then after two months the situation might have changed completely again. Of course resting and getting news from the Nazgul and Galadriel's state of mind is usefull but still doesn't convince me to wait for winter coming. I rather think that Elrond sent the scounts to the hunt for Gollum v2.0
Gollum is the only living being who has secretely entered Mordor. And that way is the only way as one does not simply walk into that land. Mordor is the only region in ME where there are no maps (or at least since numenorean times) and the heart of Mordor is precisely Frodos destination. Elrond surely has memory of it but the country might have changed a lot in the last 3.000 years (and as changes of ages tend to have). Having Gollum captured and taken to Rivendell they could get very valuable information for the last part of the journey. If he doesn't properly describe the way even with the fear of fire upon him, the fellowship could take him along as a prisoner to show them the way (as he eventually did). Gollum will prefer to be close to his precious than to be left behind. The council believed that Gollum would escape the orcs again or be released so there is good chance that they will capture him without fighting the enemy and revealing their plan to enter Mordor.
Those are other informations supporting my theory:
  • The scouts' report that "Nothing had been seen or heard of Gollum"
  • Gandalf feels that Gollum has still an important part to play.
  • Other scouts are sent over the misty mountains on different passes. Elrond is aware that Gollum knows that Bilbo's home is somewhere in the west so he has to cross the mountains at some point.
  • Aragorn is sent to the hunt because he already caught him once and knows his foot prints exactly. Tharbad and Hollin are west of the mountains and Aragorn could cut Gollum off if he already went thus far. After no tracks have been found there Aragorn is sent again with Elladan and Elrohir to help him
  • The scouts are searching along the Anduin, where Smeagol was at home once and where he found the Ring. He might go back there looking for another ring?
  • The scouts search along the southern border of Mirkwood where he was last seen (taken by the orcs).
  • The scouts went to Galadriel who might have power to see Gollums position in her mirror. Also there are good chances that Gollum is sneaking around the area of Lorien
And why keep it secret and not telling the real reason straight forward? Well most of the company would just freak out at the idea of having Gollum with them on that journey. Even Aragorn was just about to kill him instead the first time.
I would like to hear your opinion on this.
 
In the last episode Corey started discussing why all the scouting. Scouting the geopolitical situation of the journey ahead for two months is a bit strange for me. How much can that change since the other members of the council went through those lands, in a way that might be dangerous for a small company. And if so, then after two months the situation might have changed completely again. Of course resting and getting news from the Nazgul and Galadriel's state of mind is usefull but still doesn't convince me to wait for winter coming. I rather think that Elrond sent the scounts to the hunt for Gollum v2.0
Gollum is the only living being who has secretely entered Mordor. And that way is the only way as one does not simply walk into that land. Mordor is the only region in ME where there are no maps (or at least since numenorean times) and the heart of Mordor is precisely Frodos destination. Elrond surely has memory of it but the country might have changed a lot in the last 3.000 years (and as changes of ages tend to have). Having Gollum captured and taken to Rivendell they could get very valuable information for the last part of the journey. If he doesn't properly describe the way even with the fear of fire upon him, the fellowship could take him along as a prisoner to show them the way (as he eventually did). Gollum will prefer to be close to his precious than to be left behind. The council believed that Gollum would escape the orcs again or be released so there is good chance that they will capture him without fighting the enemy and revealing their plan to enter Mordor.
Those are other informations supporting my theory:
  • The scouts' report that "Nothing had been seen or heard of Gollum"
  • Gandalf feels that Gollum has still an important part to play.
  • Other scouts are sent over the misty mountains on different passes. Elrond is aware that Gollum knows that Bilbo's home is somewhere in the west so he has to cross the mountains at some point.
  • Aragorn is sent to the hunt because he already caught him once and knows his foot prints exactly. Tharbad and Hollin are west of the mountains and Aragorn could cut Gollum off if he already went thus far. After no tracks have been found there Aragorn is sent again with Elladan and Elrohir to help him
  • The scouts are searching along the Anduin, where Smeagol was at home once and where he found the Ring. He might go back there looking for another ring?
  • The scouts search along the southern border of Mirkwood where he was last seen (taken by the orcs).
  • The scouts went to Galadriel who might have power to see Gollums position in her mirror. Also there are good chances that Gollum is sneaking around the area of Lorien
And why keep it secret and not telling the real reason straight forward? Well most of the company would just freak out at the idea of having Gollum with them on that journey. Even Aragorn was just about to kill him instead the first time.
I would like to hear your opinion on this.

There are plenty of enemy human warriors who had been in Mordor. Capturing one of those and bribing him to show the way would be much simpler then using the treacherous Gollum. It had not be necessary to bring him to Rivendell. He could still be in Gondor waiting for them untill they get there. Boromir could arrange such a thing without problems via private messages to Faramir should it have been deemed necessary. But I am sure Gandalf knew the ways into Mordor, and according to the existing maps there were several ways in to choose from.

But checking on Gollum - regardless of getting some additional info out of him (I do think Gandalf used his time while interrogating him the first time to find out how much exactly he would know, how he get in and out - and Cirith Ungol was for sure not the way Gandalf intended to try - given his dismay when Faramir told him later, that this was the way that Frodo has chosen) is for sure a prudent thing to do.
 
those warriors surely don't know a secret way into Mordor. They probably just know the Black Gate, and the passage by Minas Morgul or maybe entering from the east.
Gondor is at war. They probably cannot be bothered to find a wicked creature without being told about the Ring (which certainly Elrond would not allow) and certainly don't have the skill. You need elves and Dunedain for this task, and even so. And why should Gondorians look for Gollum in the Misty Mountains or near Dol Guldur. Its not their domain.
How does Gandalf know other ways into Mordor? Why did he never tell Aragorn or Frodo about them?
The first time he met Gollum he was solely interested in finding out what ring it was and was happy to understand some bits of all the nonsense Gollum said. Can't imagine that he wanted to have a conversation about Mordor at this point. That the Ring has to be destroyed there was not decided yet. And again why did he then never mention Shelob to anybody?
Gandalf's dismay was because of the fortresses of Minas Morgul and Cirith Ungol. Not because of the secret stair. Pretty sure he did not know of this passage. Maybe rumors of spiders
 
those warriors surely don't know a secret way into Mordor. They probably just know the Black Gate, and the passage by Minas Morgul or maybe entering from the east.
Gondor is at war. They probably cannot be bothered to find a wicked creature without being told about the Ring (which certainly Elrond would not allow) and certainly don't have the skill. You need elves and Dunedain for this task, and even so. And why should Gondorians look for Gollum in the Misty Mountains or near Dol Guldur. Its not their domain.
How does Gandalf know other ways into Mordor? Why did he never tell Aragorn or Frodo about them?
The first time he met Gollum he was solely interested in finding out what ring it was and was happy to understand some bits of all the nonsense Gollum said. Can't imagine that he wanted to have a conversation about Mordor at this point. That the Ring has to be destroyed there was not decided yet. And again why did he then never mention Shelob to anybody?
Gandalf's dismay was because of the fortresses of Minas Morgul and Cirith Ungol. Not because of the secret stair. Pretty sure he did not know of this passage. Maybe rumors of spiders

Boromir for sure knew (as he was present at the coucil) and sending a mesage by elf (who travel fast) to Faramir who was in Ithilien would not be difficult if wanted (and no need to explain to Faramir what exactly such a guide would be needed for, Faramir trusted Boromir and would fullfill his request without asking why).
And exactly because Gondor was at war already it would not be difficult to get one of Haradrim with internal knowledge of Mordor captured and bribed.

Would Gandalf waste an interrogation to ask Gollum like three quetions only? To bring Gollum to say anything took a lot of effort, I do not think Gandalf would waste that opportunity not to squeese Gollum of anything there was to get out of him. How to he got out of Mordor was a very important issue, as he could have been send out on a secret assasination mission. Highly doubt Gandalf would neglect that. Were Gollum considered to by usefull for anything else Gandalf would have Galadriel or Elrond interrogate him.

Gandalf arrived in ME ca. 1000 Third Age. So he was already there when Mordor was still wasteland under Gondorian control untill about 1640 Third Age. [1640 King Tarondor removes the King's House to Minas Anor, plants a seedling of the White Tree. Osgiliath begins to fall into ruin. Mordor is left unguarded. Tale of Years, The Third Age] That is over 500 years when anybody could enter and explore Mordor without any problems. For sure he has checked the land out while is was an empty wasteland given what he has been send for ((opposing Sauron) in the first place.
 
I don't see Faramir and soldiers leaving the frontline in midst of war and finding a creature in a country they don't know, when even Gandalf didn't find him and Strider after many months by good fortune only.
Again, a Haradrim only knows the passages for armies but not the secret ones.
I don't think that Gandalf interrogated Gollum about how he got into Mordor as he now was in a hurry to get back to Frodo. Furthermore he thought that he will be kept in Mirkwood for further interrogations if neccessary. Gandalf found out that Gollum was released by Sauron probably at the Black Gate and into the marshes where Strider found him.
Thanks for the numbers. So you agree that even Gandalf hasn't been in Mordor for 1500 years. Also why should he look for secret passages into a wasteland as long as there are great gates? Expecting Sauron to hide there from opposition? Hmm... He could basically appear anywhere in ME.
 
Nobody suggested sending Gondorians to look for Gollum, nor was it suggested that they leave the theatre of operations.
If they really wanted to find Gollum then Frodo should’ve gone with the scouting parties. I think the scouts were looking for potential threats to the company, and Gollum was just one of those.
 
I don't see Faramir and soldiers leaving the frontline in midst of war and finding a creature in a country they don't know, when even Gandalf didn't find him and Strider after many months by good fortune only.
Again, a Haradrim only knows the passages for armies but not the secret ones.
I don't think that Gandalf interrogated Gollum about how he got into Mordor as he now was in a hurry to get back to Frodo. Furthermore he thought that he will be kept in Mirkwood for further interrogations if neccessary. Gandalf found out that Gollum was released by Sauron probably at the Black Gate and into the marshes where Strider found him.
Thanks for the numbers. So you agree that even Gandalf hasn't been in Mordor for 1500 years. Also why should he look for secret passages into a wasteland as long as there are great gates? Expecting Sauron to hide there from opposition? Hmm... He could basically appear anywhere in ME.
Nowhere did I ever state that Faramir should search for Gollum so I have no idea why keep you bringing this up?
Gandalf is not a human, he has no memory problems like a human would (beyond the knowledge he has had in Valinor as Olorin before his incarnation, which is indeed clouded - like all the spells in every tounge that he knew before). And old mountains usually get smaller not higher with time passing and even if those were "young" mountains they would not have grown much in 1500 years - and neither Mordorian ( as long as the ring is still there) nor Numenorian architecture is prone to suffer decay or erossion.
The gorge of the Poros river if anything would have gotten wider and not more narrow.

How Gollum got into Mordor is completely irrelevant as he had been caught by Mordor in the act.
How he got out is interesting because he claimed to have done that on his own. That he managed to escape Sauron is not propable. So what is his mission? Gandalf would not have neglected to find out how much Gollum really knew. And this seems to not to have been much. He was captured by Mordor, tortured, released while making it look to him he escaped on his own, he did not care for anything else much but how to get out. The only things he did there was establishing a friendship with Shelob.
He was probably watched from behind while leaving. He is known to the enemy. Not very valuable as a guide. And he has not much intel to give.

Faramir fights the Haradrim regularly, as that is his job. Leaving one or some alive is very simple, you just simply do not kill him. Not much effort required at all. Just promise him live, freedom and some reward. Take the clothes of his fallen camrades, amend them a little and claim him and his new companions being the lone survivors of a squirmish and the hobbits being his slaves. Much much safer than relying on Gollum. You could even try the Black Gate this way.
 
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It had not be necessary to bring him to Rivendell.
I thought you were talking about Gollum there. That's where all the confusion came from. Haha oh man.
What do you think was Gandalfs plan how to sneak into Mordor?
Your Haradrim fan fiction sounds like a LOTRO quest :)
I guess you are right. Gollum has been captured on his attempt to enter secretly into Mordor, so he would not make it as a reliable guide. That wraps it up for me.
 
As I read this thread, I can't help but notice the similarities between Gollum and Hurin. I know that's quite a statement to make, but when Morgoth released Hurin, he did so to sew dissension and mistrust among his enemies and as a nice little bonus, managed to narrow down the location of Gondolin. Sauron may have used that template in the same way with Gollum. Having Gollum on the 'loose' would certainly not have the same impact as Hurin amongst Sauron's enemies, to be sure, but by following Gollum's progress, perhaps Sauron was hoping that Gollum would provide the location of the Shire. Little did Sauron know that Gollum had little to no idea where the Shire was either.

Turin: ‘Turgon, Turgon, remember the Fen of Serech! O Turgon, will you not hear in your hidden halls?’

Gollum: 'Baggins, thief! We hates it forever!'
 
I thought you were talking about Gollum there. That's where all the confusion came from. Haha oh man.
What do you think was Gandalfs plan how to sneak into Mordor?
Your Haradrim fan fiction sounds like a LOTRO quest :)
I guess you are right. Gollum has been captured on his attempt to enter secretly into Mordor, so he would not make it as a reliable guide. That wraps it up for me.
I do not think the Haradrim was the plan as Boromir sent no message so I just have given it as an example of easier ways to come to a more reliable guide if needed. I am convinced none was needed as Gandalf knew of several way into Mordor to choose from when he gets there. He did not discuss it as this was most secret info and Aragorn was due to Minas Tirith anyway, so this was unnecassary info for him to know. I think the easiest way for the hobbits would be to continue by boat down the Anduin up to the Poros, then up the Poros and then joinig people and goods coming into Mordor from the South though the gorge of Poros.
 
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I don't think Gandalf means anything as definite as having scouts look for Gollum. He believes Gollum still has a part to play that neither he nor Sauron intend, but he doesn't know what it is. He also tells Pippin in Minas Tirith that he felt that Gollum and Frodo would meet some time. He is not frightened by learning that they were together, but of Cirith Ungol. Faramir would have told Denethor, along with Pippin and Gandalf, that Frodo had described a place where stairs climb up to a pass into Mordor, so Gandalf did know about the Stair of Cirith Ungol. But I don't think Gandalf had any intention of playing matchmaker. I think he is willing to trust in Fate or Providence, or whatever you call it, believing there is a plan that he doesn't want to interfere with.

Interrogating Gollum, Gandalf had two main concerns - when and where did Gollum get the Ring (he is still looking for provenance), and whether he has been captive in Mordor and what did he tell Sauron if he had been. He manages to find out both things,, which probably took days to extract. And learning how long ago Gollum took the Ring and seeing how it destroyed him, he would be even more anxious to get to Frodo. His fears for Frodo and Bilbo must have been sky-high. Gollum is left with the elves for safety and possible cure, and Gandalf and Aragorn go west together and we get Chapter Two. The scouts are luooking for signs of coming war in the north, against the dwarves, against Rivendell and Lorien and Mirkwood - and we learn later that even if they didn't see such signs yet, such war will indeed happen while we are focusing on the south. And perhaps to warn the peoples of those lands.

As for Gollum, he was hiding from both the good guys and the bad guys, he would be looking for someplace under the mountrains, which is after all his comfort place, getting into, Moria, but not getting out again before the Company arrives and he follows them out.
 
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