A Place to Park my Thoughts

Anastasia

Anastasia

Member
Hello there,

I am back, but I am horribly behind on the podcasts and the forums. I have been thinking about a way for me to start contributing again without getting quite overwhelmed by the sheer magnitude of what I have missed, and the idea I came up with is this thread.

What is this forum?
A place for me to share my thoughts while I catch up with the podcast.

What does that mean?
-I will be posting things here as I catch up
-I will mention at the top of any new posts as to which session I am on.
-I will not be engaging too much with the other forums as I do this, so if anything I post here has been discussed elsewhere, that is why.

Why am I doing this?
-Because if I become overwhelmed by how much I have missed, it will cause me to clam up and not post at all.

If you want to engage with me on this forum, you can. If you want to ignore this forum until I have caught up, that is totally fine too.
 
I am on Season 2, Session 3
Hoo boy, this session has a lot to think about.

I've started at the beginning, with the elves at Cuivienen. The consensus among the hosts was to keep with the Ted Nasmith image, and go with full body coverings. They also wanted the elves to be able to live in trees and on the water. So, my challenge is how to create a look that covers the body, is primitive (as per the requirement of "the closer to Valinor, the more technology"), and allows for water work and climbing.

My solution is to limit the garments to all of the possible ways to wear a rectangle without sewing or cutting it. There are many, just search videos on how to wear a sarong or a Pareo. In terms of versatility, many of the looks that are achieved can be made shorter for water work by tying the two bottom corners of the rectangle together, or by using the same principle as one would when tying Tasuki.

In keeping with the Ted Nasmith image, I imagine the cloth would be off-white (the natural colour of the plant fibres). As an addition to the look, the cloth would have decorative selvedges, perhaps coloured with natural dyes or woven with other plant material. There would also be a diversity of accessories, all made with plant materials. I do not see the elves at Cuivienen wearing animal fibres or using any animal parts in their clothing. Any animal materials they would have would be found objects, and thus very rare. The possible exception to this would be shells. I Imagine that there could be various marine creatures that shed their shells as they grow, which would be readily available to the shore-dwelling elves.

I imagine there would be a pervasive motif in all of the accessories. A ward against the dark rider that takes the elves away. If we see the elves before they know about the dark rider, then this motif would be absent.

I drew some pictures while brainstorming for visual reference, they are super-quick sketches, so hopefully they are understandable to people other than me...

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That's all for now!
 
I am on season 2, session 5

I decided to stick with the progression of the elves today. My task was the Avari.

So, the hosts mentioned that they wanted the Avari to be "wild" and "nomadic" which to me means a hunter-gatherer society. When I imagine hunter-gatherers I imagine very scantily clad folks, but given the hosts aversion to naked elves at Cuivienen, I though that that might be a bit much. So my challenge was, how to create a group of people who are similar to the elves a Cuivienen, but more mobile.

My solution was to keep the basic premises of the Cuivienen elves (rectangles, no sewing, plant fibers only), but give them two body garments, instead of one. In this way the looms they would need would be smaller, it would be faster to weave the cloth, and the use of two body garments allows for more movement while also being reasonably modest (alas that we must adhere to modern ideals of modesty).

I thought of a couple of changes to the cloth that could be made as well. We keep the decorative selvedges and the fringe at the ends of the cloth, but we also add a bit of colour, subdued colours that could be easily achieved with natural dyes and limited mordants. The whole cloth could be dyed, or there could be a few coloured stripes, or even some painted-on designs for special occasions (it is unlikely that painted-on colours would last long in this instance). We could vary the shapes of the cloth a little bit by making some triangular shawl shapes or some pointed ends on the rectangle shapes.

I remember a discussion from waaaaay back on the message boards about keeping to plant fibers for the elves so that when we first meet the men they will be wearing hides, which will give the audience a visual cue that they are different. I still like this idea and think we should keep it, but perhaps add the Dwarves to the list of pelt-wearers as well.

One thing that I am still trying to figure out is whether the Avari should tattoo themselves or not. It is pretty common practice among many societies to tattoo themselves (for various reasons) and I think that tattooed wards against the dark rider might be a logical step that the Avari might take. Making the wards a part of ones own body rather than a garment or trinket that one might lose seems like a good idea to me. The problem I am having is that this seems to be contrary to pretty much every depiction of anything Tolkien related ever. I have never seen a depiction of an elf with tattoos in my life, and I wonder if Tolkien would be turning in his grave that I am even considering it.

Anyway, I drew some pictures of the Avari to help illustrate my points, hopefully they are understandable to people other than me...

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That's all for now!
 
I am on Season 2, Session 7

Hello there,

Today I decided to focus on the three ambassadors of the elves. The hosts had mentioned that they wanted a way to show that Ingwë, Elwë and Finwë were different after having visited Valinor, and one of the ways they suggested was clothes, yay! I imagine that their new clothes would be gifts from the Valar, so they wouldn't have to follow any logical progression of technique.

So, in this post I am going to show the image that I drew, and then explain it after.

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Ingwë:
-He lost his family to the black rider, he needs to heal
-He is the first to approach Oromë
-Whereas Elwë and Finwë become best buds, Ingwë does not. He is aloof? Perhaps he seems aloof because of his grief?
-He changes the least after visiting Valinor.

Pre-Valinor: I figure that after he loses his family to the dark rider he is probably going to stick pretty close to Cuivienen, so I drew him in a wrap that is a little less active than the others, it's very simple with few accessories. The one accessory that I want to highlight is his necklace. It features a four pointed star, which can foreshadow his connection to Manwë and Varda, but it would also not be out of place because the elves revere the stars. I have his hair up in a high ponytail, which is very practical and simple. The border of his wrap and his accessories will feature blue tones, which works in two ways, first, blue is a sad colour, so it can indicate his grief, but it is also Manwë's colour, so there is some more foreshadowing in his costume
Post-Valior: I've kept to his simple lines, but now I have added some nods of Manwë's costume as well, the full skirt and the V-neck. The V-neck would be beautifully decorated with glistening embroidery in blues and deep purples (Manwë and Varda's colours) and the rest of the garment would be silver. I have updated his necklace, imagining that Varda would give him a star pendant on a fine chain. He will keep his ponytail, but it is now low on the neck rather than high on the head.

Elwë:
-He is an adventurer, he is motivated to go to Valinor by curiosity
-He and Finwë are best buds, he travels back and forth between the two groups to keep in touch with his friends.
-He becomes enamored of the light, which is one of the reasons he stops when he meets Melian.
-His people are devoted to him

Pre-Valinor: I decided to play up his adventurer side, so he has wrapped his garment in a way that allows him freedom of movement. He has a bag to keep things in, a little knife, and one of his bracelets is actually just a length of rope wrapped around his wrist. His hair is up in a high bun to keep it out of the way while he is adventuring. His accessories feature light green, dark brown, and orange (to represent his restlessness and his eagerness for adventure)
Post-Valinor: He's still an adventurer, but now his clothes are a little more refined. He has grieves and bracers for protection, actual pants, a tunic, and a cape. He has kept his own bag and belt. His hair is still in a bun, but it is now low on the neck instead of high on the head. His colours are the same except for the orange, his third colour is now silver to represent his love of the light and his tempered desire for adventure.

Finwë:
-Elwë and Finwë are best buds
-Is codependent (Elwë, Miriel, Indis)
-Is a subcreator
-He is the most reluctant and skeptical of going, he thinks that Elwë and Ingwë need someone there to temper their enthusiasm.
-When he returns he is the most changed, now wanting to go because he can learn so much from the Valar.

Pre-Valinor: To show the companionship between Elwë and Finwë I have wrapped their garments in the same basic way, except that Finwë has chosen to keep his as a robe. He has a bag as well in which he keeps tools and things that he has made. All of his accessories would have been made by him. He wears a necklace with the ubiquitous ward against the dark rider. He wears his hair down. His colours are light brown and dark green. He would blend in best with the other elves at Cuivienen.
Post-Valinor: He is most influenced by Aulë, so he is wearing clothes that echo Aulë's clothes. Aulë has also given him an apron, which is not drawn in the image. He now has a backpack in which to keep his tools. He keeps only one of his previous accessories, a bracelet, and on the other arm he wears a bracelet given to him by Aulë. He wears them to remind him of how far he has has come and how far he has yet to go in his craft. He now ties his hair back. His colours have changed to dark brown, grey, and red (to represent his newfound zeal)
 
I am on Season 2, Session 9

Firstly: Thanks MithLuin! To be honest, I hadn't thought about Elwë's cloak from Valinor being The Cloak, but the more I think about it, the more I like it, so I'm rolling with it. It should absolutely be special. I'm thinking it could have some metallic threads woven into it, it could have an interesting texture to it, and it could have silver embroidery on it, and especially around the hood and the center front opening. The clasp could also be silver and very finely decorated, maybe the two trees motif since he's enamored of the light?

Now for some quick thoughts that I had while listening to the episodes this week:
-Thuringwethil's cape should be made of tripe leather (Which is rather difficult to find images of online) It has an unusual texture and I think it could look both beautiful and gross. I also think that her transformation into a bat should look similar to Yubaba's (Spirited Away) transformation into a bird (also really hard to find videos of online...)
-I think that the elves waiting in the halls of Mandos should be weaving their stories. In our story Vairë's weaving is meant to be visions of the future, however, in the published Silmarillion she weaves all of the history of Arda. I think that not only would the elves weaving their own stories help put the idea of the weavings being historical records on the table again, but it could also serve two additional purposes. It could allow the elves to think over their lives more carefully, and it could also help the Valar (well, Mandos) understand their hearts and the reasons for their decisions better, which could be a way for him to decide whether they are ready to move among the living again. Maybe finishing their tapestries (or embroideries, as the case may be) could be one of the requirements for leaving Mandos.

Now on to today's topic - The elves on the Great Journey
So, this week I have been doing more thinking than drawing. I have been thinking about how the elves crossed Middle Earth. My first question was, why did it take them so long to cross middle earth? The reason I was thinking about this was that I was imagining how one would produce cloth while traveling. Physically crossing Beleriand would not take several thousand years, so the Elves must have made camps and stayed in places for long periods of time during their journey. The reason this is important to me is that if they did not need to move for several years, then people could set up larger looms to make cloth on. The reason larger looms are important to me is because my original idea for their clothing while traveling was that it would be made from narrower lengths of cloth made on portable looms. This reason doesn't hold up given the idea that they set up camp for long periods of time along the way, so I have to change my ideas about their clothing. I have also been thinking about sewing needles. It is possible to make sewing needles out of bone, antler, and wood, in fact sewing needles with eyes have been found in our world dating from at least 26, 000 BC. The reason this is important to me is that I want to start putting the elves in clothing that is sewn together (rather than rectangles of cloth) now that they are on the journey and being influenced by the Valar. Also, they can't be using metal at least until they have sundered from the Nandor.

Anyway, a few solutions to my traveling and cloth conundrum is to have a difference between the Vanyar and Noldor and the Teleri. Perhaps the Vanyar and Noldor took very little time indeed to cross Middle Earth, and so maybe their clothing could be made out of cloth made on narrower looms (26" wide maybe?) but the Teleri stayed in various places for longer, thus giving people time to set up wider looms and make clothing out of that.The other solution is to scrap the narrower looms idea entirely and just show the progression and differences between the peoples through the cut and colour of the clothing and the motifs that they use.

I haven't really decided yet, harumf.

That's all for now!
 
I am on Season 2, Session 9

So, I had a bit of inspiration today and thought up some ideas about what the wards against the dark rider might look like. I decided to go with the theme of the stars, so they are all inspired by Varda's stars and constellations.

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I thought about Using Menelmacar as well, but I thought he might look a bit too much like the dark rider himself, so I'm going to think about that for a little longer.

That's all for now!
 
I am on Season 2, Session 10

First thing, I am so sad I missed the live discussion with Ted Nasmith 🙁

On to costumes...

So, I am still thinking about what the elves on the journey are going to wear, the more I think about it the more I want to go with my original thought of having them use narrower cloth. Anyways, while I was thinking I decided to draw Melian.

Drawing her has made me really remember jut how bad I am at drawing, and how much I wish I had time to drape these costumes, but alas, drawing is the most expedient way to express my ideas, so I guess I am just going to have to deal with how mediocre I am at it *sigh* /end rant.

My visual inspirations for her are:
Nightingales: http://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2015/06/17/21/pg-8-nightingale-rex.jpg
Ted Nasmith's Luthien: http://tednasmith.poverellomedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/TN-Luthien.jpg
Elena Kukanova's Melian: http://ekukanova.deviantart.com/art/The-Light-of-Valinor-325122859
Two pictues of Rachel Weisz:
http://celebmafia.com/wp-content/up...015-toronto-international-film-festival_1.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-MUiJSQLD5UE/UOeMI59_0BI/AAAAAAAASzM/9IhjF025YF8/s1600/03-rachel-weisz-.jpg

So, Melian is associated with Vana, Estë and Yavanna. Vana and Yavanna are associated with flowers, Estë is clad in grey. Ted Nasmith has Luthien clad in blue. Nightingales are brown and grey. My challenge was how to bring all of these various things together. This is where the images of Rachel Weisz (who we cast as Melian) come in to the solution. The second image reveals to me that she can rock a nude colored dress, which is great because nightingales are a very sand/nude colour of brown. The first image is where I got my inspiration for how to incorporate the flowers. The image by Elena Kukanova is there because I love how she has represended Melian's hair.

So, the solution. The main portion of Melian's dress will be sandy brown with small crystals added to it to give it an otherworldly sparkle (this could also be done with an overlay of sparkly tulle), this is how we represent her association with nightingales. There will be an assymetrical feature of trailing blue flowers down one side of the dress and on her chest and arms. The effect on her chest and arms should be that the flowers are simply a part of her, so this might have to be a collaboration with hair and makeup to attach the flowers without any visible net to attach them to (in the first image of Rachel Weisz you can see the net that the flowers are on, this should not happen on Melian). The flowers reveal her association with Vana and Yavanna, and the blue gives a nod to the fact that she will be the mother of Luthien. I think that this is important because in the discussion this episode the hosts were noting that bringing Luthien into the world was her greatest work.

The hosts had also mentioned that both her and Elwë should be visibly changed when they leave Nan Elmoth. I think that for Elwë it will not be a matter of changing his costume, but of lighting him differently and maybe making his hair a shiny grey. For Melian, we could keep the same design but make it less otherworldly. So there would be two dresses. The one for inside of Nan Elmoth will have the sparkly overlay, will be made of soft, flowing fabrics, and will look like a part of her at the neckline, not like a dress. The second one will perhaps not have the sparkly overlay (or maybe less sparkly) will be made of stiffer, more worldly fabric, and could potentially be clearly a dress at the neckline, this could be achieved by making the neckline and sleeves out of net and adding the flowers, or having the flowers in those areas disappear when she exits Nan Elmoth, leaving only the flowers on the main part of the dress.

Anyway, here is the image:
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That's all for now!
 
It also avoids addressing the question of 'Do elves scar?' that would come up with ritual scarification or branding to achieve that goal. Tattoos are art, so elvish 😉.

[Personally, I think Maedhros is a very scarred elf, but arguments could be made that elves heal fully, without scarring.]
 
I am on Season 2, session 11

Oh hi everyone! So many responses today, I like it 🙂

I'm glad that I am not the only one who thinks that ward tattoos are a natural progression for the Avari. I agree with all of your points, and I wonder what the hosts might think...

MithLuin: I don't think the elves will have silk in large quantities until they settle down somewhere. The process of breeding silk worms requires a pretty settled existence. It is, however, possible that they could harvest wild silk moth cocoons and use them to make clothing, it would simply yield a more uneven cloth. So they could presumably have silk all the way back at Cuivienen, although I am not sure whether that would be a good idea from a thematic perspective... hmmm... I need to ponder a little more.

On to my topic for today, the elves on the Great Journey!

I finally made a decision, and I have decided to make their clothing out of narrower (26" or less) lengths of cloth. I think that this will evoke the idea of travel better, since it will be an indication that they are using more portable looms. I have also decided that they are going to start sewing the lengths together to make garments. It is absolutely possible to make a reasonably fine needle out of bone or wood, so there is no reason that they can't start sewing now. This will also fit thematically since they are being influenced by the Valar, and will therefore be developing their skills at a quick pace.

The one issue I was struggling with this week is that we only have, like, two episodes for The Great Journey, and it might be jarring for the audience to all of a sudden see everyone wearing different clothes. My solution to this is to gradually introduce the new clothing into the story. So, when Lenwë decides to stay there might be 50% of the elves who are dressed the new way, then when Elwë is lost there could be 75% and then when Cirdan decides to stay all of the elves would be wearing the new clothes.

Now on to the explanation of my sketch.

I decided to use different clothing styles for each group.
The Vanyar and the Noldor will be similar in their approach to clothing, preferring to use a long horizontal piece for their arms and chest, and then attaching a vertical tube to create the body and leg portion of the garment, they will have a preference for boat and crew necks. I have also kept a bit of Cuivienen continuity by keeping the decorative selvedges and fringed ends of cloth, although I have also added some additional colored weaving patterns into the main portion of the cloth, especially on the arm and chest piece.
The Vanyar will prefer longer, simpler robes. I decided to do this not only because that is how I have depicted Ingwë, but also because the hosts wanted the Vanyar to move towards being more monastic. I think they wanted that to start happening when the elves arrived in Valinor, but I think that we could argue for it starting now. The idea being that they would be so focused on getting to Valinor that they would not spend much time on decorating their clothing.
The Noldor will take more delight in crafting their clothing, and will have a preference for two body garments over one. I have depicted them with more embellishment on their garments, and I think they would also have more bags, pockets, and pouches in which to keep their tools and trinkets they find on the way.
The Teleri will have a different approach to clothing that the Vanyar and the Noldor. They will use three tubes for their main body garment one big one for the core, and two smaller ones for the arms, they will have a preference for square necklines. They will also preferentially wear pants with cuffed hems. I think that this is important because I imagine the Teleri as being more adventurous and practical, and pants are a pretty good indicator of adventure and practicality. They will also have an assortment of bags, pouches, and pockets in which to keep their adventuring items. I have kept a bit of continuity with the other elves by keeping the decorative selvedges, but I have turned the fringed ends of cloth into knotted ones (you know, so they don't get caught on things). I think that the Teleri could also have some decorative weaving throughout their cloths, but perhaps it would be subtler.

I have made the colour scheme for the Vanyar and the Noldor blue, purple, red, and brown, since those are the colours of their leaders, and I have made the colour scheme of the Teleri brown, green, grey/black, and blue, since those are Elwë's colours, with the addition of blue as a reference to water.

All of the elves on the Great Journey will braid their hair in various (simple) ways.

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That's all for now!
 
I am on season 2, session 12. I have also watched the Youtube video of the discussion with Ted Nasmith.

So, I am still thinking about how the Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri will look once they get to Valinor. I have been specifically pondering what their defining looks will be. I have a few ideas and inspirations, but they are not fully formed yet, so I'm not going to post them. Also, watching the video of the interview with Ted Nasmith ate into my pondering time, so even though it was great and super interesting, I don't have much to present as a result.

I decided to try and get an idea I have had about Yavanna onto paper. It's a super quick sketch, but it is an idea that has been running around in my head for quite some time now.

The dress is based on a Krikor Jacobian wedding dress. I actually had that exact silhouette in my head for Yavanna, and when I saw the image I was so happy that someone had made it work so elegantly. The neckline would plunge way down and feature a standing collar of branches. The train (with the help of some lovely VFX) would literally become a river of plant and animal life behind her. Her legs and feet are inspired by the Forest God from Princess Mononoke. I have been playing with the idea of giving her horns as well, but decided not to depict them in the picture. The dress would literally be covered in plant life, as though it were made of plants. I have been wondering if small creatures could be added to it in post, like butterflies and birds and other little animals and insects. I mean, she would have an entourage of animals and dryads and nature spirits most of the time anyway, but having some live on her dress would be fun, I think.

I'm not 100% on the proportion and some of the details, but I think you get the idea...

Anyways, here it is:

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Oh, this is a very random comment, but I would like for elvish women to have bare arms and elvish men to wear long sleeves. My reason for this is based on the descriptions of Luthien dancing - you can clearly see her arms while she is doing that. Also, when Finrod Felagund meets Men for the first time, he finds them 'scantily clad.' These same Men have just marched over a mountain, so likely were wearing somewhat warm clothing. The only thing I can think is that Finrod himself wears a lot of layers, so considered their lack of layering to be half-dressed 😉.

Obviously, this doesn't have to apply to *every* costume in *every* culture, but I do think it would be interesting to differentiate the clothing between the genders in this way (at least sometimes). So, a long-sleeved undertunic would be maybe typical for the Noldor men when they leave Valinor (or something), and some dresses for women would *not* have the deep, flowing bell sleeves. (Though, of course, some can, because those are so fun and pretty - though not entirely practical.)

Would this be okay?
 
on the contrary i DO prefer elves -both sexes- wearing tight and close-fitting clothing.this might seem pretty modern to us who often think of long and wide sleeved clothes as archaic, but it would fit to the elves i think.

however i think there could be different styles of course, more simple practical outfits for working,traveling and fighting and fancy clothes -raiments as tolkien called them - for more formal events.
 
I guess it should be that clothing styles, just like language, become very divorced between Moriquendi and Caliquendi. Room for everyone's preferences under that tent.
 
just mean, the few times tolkien drew elves, they wear pretty close fitting simple long or shortearmed tunics, short breeches, pointed shoes
and round or conic caps.

that does of course in no wsy rule out that they also had different clothes from that.

i really like anastasias designs!
 
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I am on Season 2, session 13. I also participated in the Worldbuilding discussion yesterday.

That means that this post is mostly going to be recap of the new costume points from the discussion.

But first, I am going to respond to the posts that have been posted since I was last here.
MithLuin: We discussed this in the discussion, but I just want to reiterate that I am on board with this idea and will incorporate it into my designs 🙂
Haerangil: I was thinking of incorporating the depiction of elves that we see in Tolkien's drawings into the clothes of the Sindar and the Sylvan elves. My reasoning for this is that the hosts have said that they want the Sylvan elves to live in trees, and I thought that having their garments be tighter would be a logical step for them because then their clothing would not get caught on the trees. Also, the one that I have seen is of Beleg, who is a Sindarin elf.
Amysrevenge: Yes, we absolutely have lots of time and peoples that have to be dressed differently, so we have the opportunity to incorporate a lot of ideas into the clothing of the different peoples.

On to important costume points from the discussion:

-Shoes will develop during the Great Journey (note to self to draw some shoes). The Teleri at Alqualondë will wear sandals.
-Hats will be mostly for practicality (for example: coastal peoples wearing conical hats to keep off the rain), in Valinor the Noldor will start using them for adornment
-We will mostly see silk once the elves settle down, we will invent a way for Yavanna to teach them how to obtain the silk strand without killing the silk worm.
-The gender binary will be an aspect of dress, but it will be less important than the function of the costume. Meaning that although there will be certain things that will indicate gender, the more important question to ask will be "what does this person do in their day to day lives and how does this affect what they will wear?"
-The Vanyar's costumes will have a simple silhouette, but with beautifully fine detail. So, when you look at them from a distance they will look simple and monastic, but when you get closer you will find that they have incorporated very fine needlework and weaving techniques into their clothing. The reasoning for this is that 1)They would care about their clothing, and they would still love to create beautiful things, but it would not be necessary for the beautiful things they make to be obvious 2)Fine needlework can be very meditative, and they could invent songs and poetry while they do that work.
-Given the amount of time we have to cover in the episodes, we will have many styles of clothing to go through, even within episodes. This makes the colour palettes of individual characters very important, and we will have to make sure that those colour palettes stay consistent, unless there is a big turning point in the character's life that should be indicated with a colour change.
-Wedding dresses: Since the elves that we see getting married are royal elves they will have splendid wedding dresses. We will NOT follow the current custom of having a white wedding dress that you never wear again, our wedding dress custom will be closer to the traditional idea of wearing ones best dress which will then be used at important events for a long time after the wedding. Indis' dress will have to indicate a rather large number of character ideas at the same time (cue me spending months trying to figure out how to make her dress do all of the things it has to do)
-Speaking of wedding dresses, in the case of people marrying people from different groups of elves we will consider the character of the person in question before deciding whether or not they will adopt the clothing style of the group they are marrying into.
-Knitting will be a feature of the clothing of the elves of Alqualondë
-Robes as an important feature of fashion will be reserved for the Numenoreans, this does not mean that there will be no robes anywhere else, it just means that their clothing style will be defined by robes, whereas other cultures will have other main features of dress.

Nicholas, MithLuin, Karita, have I forgotten anything?
 
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