oh i have this conspiracy theory about the two blue wizards, that they are actually secretely makar and méassë (which actually fits with the quite martial surnames the two blue wizards get). Bc I think the two used-to-be valar didn't just disappear from the story but just got demoted to maiar in my mind. So there isn't a major war-vala. Anyway. I just have opinions about the blue wizards. And I do think méassë wouldn't even be a contradiction, because i am quite certain the word wizard is just a later translation of the westron translation of istari, and since the blue wizards disappeared so quickly i can imagine ppl would mostly have guessed from radagast, gandalf and saruman.
Alatar and Pallando
- Thread starter Kathrin
- Start date
Odola
Well-Known Member
Convinced. Would explain the martial arts as an quasi art form in the East nicely.
Rob Harding
Well-Known Member
Here’s a thought.
When we think of Istari having abandoned their roles and failed in their quests, it’s very easy to paint that in a negative light. But could it be more nuanced? Could they have interpreted it in a way that is perceived as failure even by the Valar but to them is noble. And could they have abandoned their callings I different ways?
I do like the idea of one becoming a cult leader. What we think of as a dark wizards. Sure. But that almost feels predictable.
What if one just fell in love. Had a family. Found happiness. And spread it. Spread hope. In a very small way. Slowly. But in the tiny ways that matter.
I’d love to see George Takei’s blue wizard just living with his husband, raising some children. Maybe saved from some catastrophe caused by the other wizard who went rogue. But the response of the kindly failed wizard wasn’t to battle. It was to reset the balance by restoring simple hope.
It’s ‘failure’. But it’s beautiful.
When we think of Istari having abandoned their roles and failed in their quests, it’s very easy to paint that in a negative light. But could it be more nuanced? Could they have interpreted it in a way that is perceived as failure even by the Valar but to them is noble. And could they have abandoned their callings I different ways?
I do like the idea of one becoming a cult leader. What we think of as a dark wizards. Sure. But that almost feels predictable.
What if one just fell in love. Had a family. Found happiness. And spread it. Spread hope. In a very small way. Slowly. But in the tiny ways that matter.
I’d love to see George Takei’s blue wizard just living with his husband, raising some children. Maybe saved from some catastrophe caused by the other wizard who went rogue. But the response of the kindly failed wizard wasn’t to battle. It was to reset the balance by restoring simple hope.
It’s ‘failure’. But it’s beautiful.
That would mirror what Tolkien did with the other wizards. Both Saruman and Radagast ultimately failed in their quests, but those failures looked very different. Radagast got 'distracted' by birds and beasts, and sort of wandered off, not playing a significant role or influencing much in the story (though he does get Gandalf rescued that one time!) Saruman, on the other hand, works very hard at the quest, focused on it almost exclusively...and gets frustrated by the lack of progress. That leaves him open to temptation to adopt the enemy's methods for a faster win. In both cases, the method of failure was intrinsic to the nature of the wizard. Very in character.
So, whatever we decide to do with the Blue Wizards in the Third Age, we should keep that in mind.
So, whatever we decide to do with the Blue Wizards in the Third Age, we should keep that in mind.
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
Both becoming sort of cult leaders or religious figures is an obvious choice but of course Mithluin is right, none of them should either mirror Radagast nor Saruman.
I remember from Rpgs several divergent versions of what had become of them, ranging from one becoming a hermit to one becoming a Sauronic Warlord or both getting killed.I didn't really like either.I think liked the version in which both started competing tribal alliances best.
I remember from Rpgs several divergent versions of what had become of them, ranging from one becoming a hermit to one becoming a Sauronic Warlord or both getting killed.I didn't really like either.I think liked the version in which both started competing tribal alliances best.
Rob Harding
Well-Known Member
When it comes to it, I think we'll be able to start from the ground up with these two. Really work out who they are. Then we'll be able to understand what the end road looks like for them, when we know who they are.
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
I think middle-earth roleplaying did a really good job with that!
They went with: allright what were they to start with? One a servant of Orome, the other of Mandos and extrapolated from that..
So Alatar became a far striding nomad, a horseman, an archer and hunter, the more adventuring and daring, but also more warlike and agressive one of the two.
Pallando became a darker charakter, a doom-sayer, a prophet, a cultist and founder of religious sects, someone connected with death-worship and spirits.
I can relate to that and understand why and how they constructed this from the few things we know.
Could we get to other conclusions? Alatar might mean radiance-lord or protector, Pallando perhaps "far one" or "distant one". Morinehtar, darkness-battler and Romestamo easthelper, or maybe east-maker or east-smith?
One could extrapolate from that perhaps stories of a very charismatic character, one associated with light and brightness who acts as a great defender and a reclusive or very distant character, one who acts hidden, maybe through agents or messengers and who himself stays behind the scenes and is hard to catch.
Or one character who clearly is a great warrior and effective fighter, maybe even a warlord and destroyer of evil and another character who is very benevolent, or a great maker and forger of cultures and peoples.
I always asked myself if there are mythological figures or historical figures which might resemble them...
And i came to think of characters like the great chinese immortal old wiseman of the mountains, or perhaps even the great yellow emperor himself, or historical figures like Laotse or Kunfucius. And perhaps the great ancient arabic wiseman and magician, the starseer, or historic or quasi-historic figures like Zarathustra, Moses, Abraham, or the old man of the mountain and with his assassins or Siddhartha Gautama.
At last i think one should be connected with the unknown far east of Middle-earth, the other one with the unknown lands of Harad.
Just ideas...
They went with: allright what were they to start with? One a servant of Orome, the other of Mandos and extrapolated from that..
So Alatar became a far striding nomad, a horseman, an archer and hunter, the more adventuring and daring, but also more warlike and agressive one of the two.
Pallando became a darker charakter, a doom-sayer, a prophet, a cultist and founder of religious sects, someone connected with death-worship and spirits.
I can relate to that and understand why and how they constructed this from the few things we know.
Could we get to other conclusions? Alatar might mean radiance-lord or protector, Pallando perhaps "far one" or "distant one". Morinehtar, darkness-battler and Romestamo easthelper, or maybe east-maker or east-smith?
One could extrapolate from that perhaps stories of a very charismatic character, one associated with light and brightness who acts as a great defender and a reclusive or very distant character, one who acts hidden, maybe through agents or messengers and who himself stays behind the scenes and is hard to catch.
Or one character who clearly is a great warrior and effective fighter, maybe even a warlord and destroyer of evil and another character who is very benevolent, or a great maker and forger of cultures and peoples.
I always asked myself if there are mythological figures or historical figures which might resemble them...
And i came to think of characters like the great chinese immortal old wiseman of the mountains, or perhaps even the great yellow emperor himself, or historical figures like Laotse or Kunfucius. And perhaps the great ancient arabic wiseman and magician, the starseer, or historic or quasi-historic figures like Zarathustra, Moses, Abraham, or the old man of the mountain and with his assassins or Siddhartha Gautama.
At last i think one should be connected with the unknown far east of Middle-earth, the other one with the unknown lands of Harad.
Just ideas...
Last edited:
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
I mean , the three Wizards we DO know are basically such three european archetypes... the grey odinic-wanderer, the old wild man of the forests and the powerful sorcerer in his tall tower.These ARE Gandalf, Radagast and Saurman! "Staff-elf","grey wanderer" "dreamer", "counciling-guest" "birdfriend" and "cunning man".
It would make sense to model the blue wizards after oriental, an african or near-eastern and a far-eastern or southeast easian well known similar archetype i think.
It would make sense to model the blue wizards after oriental, an african or near-eastern and a far-eastern or southeast easian well known similar archetype i think.
Rob Harding
Well-Known Member
I still like the idea that one of them just isn’t.
Isn’t any type of architect. Just an old fisherman who fell in love and lived a quiet life. Maybe his partner aged and died and he just continues. Nobody seeks him out for advice. Nobody knows about him, except those he cares about. They don’t treat him as an icon or oddity. He’s just who he is. And he’s happy
Isn’t any type of architect. Just an old fisherman who fell in love and lived a quiet life. Maybe his partner aged and died and he just continues. Nobody seeks him out for advice. Nobody knows about him, except those he cares about. They don’t treat him as an icon or oddity. He’s just who he is. And he’s happy
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
It's an interesting idea. Presumably, the corporeality of the Istari would allow them to father children, just as Melian bore Luthien. Having a family is certainly not out of the question.
Odola
Well-Known Member
Would end up in a line of "semi-devine" rulers sooner or later...
Last edited:
Rob Harding
Well-Known Member
Yeah this. Just some guy
Odola
Well-Known Member
Bombadil has no children.
Generally humans develop "semi-devine" ruling houses around the globe as a pattern - warranted or not. Now give them a family with a real Ainur blood in its veins - which must result in some special powers - see Luthien. Humans would let that family be? How probable is that?
Remember that humans generally want to survive as a culture. Having a ruler with some special abilities - however much diluted - increases the chances of survival. And humans generally have an instinct for such things.
Last edited:
Rob Harding
Well-Known Member
I'll be honest, I was picturing a child adopted from some cataclysm he'd witnessed and raised with a husband by the coast. Teaching his son to fish in harmony and exclusion from a world constantly at its own throat. And whose to say that son makes it happily through the story
Odola
Well-Known Member
So no blood-relations? Still being raised by an Ainur will have a similar effect, even if to a smaller extent. Make the child blind and it becomes a famed legendary seer.
Last edited:
Rob Harding
Well-Known Member
Well, we can see what direction we want to go in. I was only saying no blood relationship as I pictured the Istari figure being George Takei in this instance (just where my brain went with the casting) and pictured a much more quiet, homely scene with him and a husband. That image of the three of them together is the draw for me. That moment of intimacy and quiet
Odola
Well-Known Member
But we are in a world where there are legends, fates and magic. And actions have consequences. And Ainurs have power - even if self-limited - like in the case of Tom Bombadil - but still. And humans do react to that. An Ainur entering human society and this having no consequences? - Imho highly imrobable if not impossible.
Rob Harding
Well-Known Member
Well we can work on all that when we get there I'm sure.
Rob Harding
Well-Known Member
Remuniating on this, Tolkien layer described the Ithryn Luin by saying ‘Their task was to circumvent Sauron...’
I think if we stick to that core, we could introduce them in the First Age. Knowing Sauron goes tot eh East, as do they, their simultaneous arrivals and collision course (with the ‘fall’ of the Two Blue) could provide the narrative arc for Sauron next season.