Amazon series:reactions and thoughts (Spoiler alert!)

Odola

Well-Known Member
I literally don't understand what you mean
We do not know who Finarfin is in the story yet - but we know he exists. We know Feanor exists in the story too.

That means Galadriel has growed up in politically difficult and challeging enviroment from her earliest age as Feanor made life difficult for Finarfin, Fingolfin and their mother at Finwe's court.
Even if we do not know this latter part yet - still we shall see the effect of it - and that even if it is never explained to us - the effect should still be there = Galadriel being experinced in manouvering difficult political situations.
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
We do not know who Finarfin is in the story yet - but we know he exists. We know Feanor exists in the story too.

That means Galadriel has growed up in politically difficult and challeging enviroment from her earliest age as Feanor made life difficult for Finarfin, Fingolfin and their mother at Finwe's court.
Even if we do not know this latter part yet - still we shall see the effect of it - and that even if it is never explained to us - the effect should still be there = Galadriel being experinced in manouvering difficult political situations.
This is all extratextual. None of that exists in the show. We literally don't know if she had those experiences. You are judging it by the yard stick of another associated story. We don't know what her upbringing was other than she was apart from other elves at a young age and the death of her brother drove her further from them as she grew single minded. That is the narrative we are presented. Yes, Finarfin was name dropped but we don't know what being his daughter means.

My point is we don't have a control experiment. All we know of being a 'daughter of Finarfin' is Galadriel. And she has substantial baggage. So we are seeing the results. It's not that it's absent. We just have little to compare it to. I mean, we don't see any other 'lower' elves with the same kind of personal conflict as her and how they might react. Maybe she is more 'courtly' in her response than they would be. We only have what is before us. You're judging by an absence of data. Her story is her story. We have what we get. Her narrative seems fairly clear to me. I can understand if that is not a narrative people feel is fitting to the character they know or that the choices don't fit the character they would recognise or even if they think the general direction simply isn't one they enjoy. But I struggle to understand confusion around the inbuilt narrative. If anything, as others have said, it's very pared back and direct. It's simple and economical. Which is a storytelling choice and style that again, people may like or not. But I think the internal narrative is fairly consistent.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
This is all extratextual. None of that exists in the show.
That could be if neither Finarfin nor Feanor had been mentioned in the show. But they have been - and as long nothing else had been claimed about them in the show to the contrary - so long what we do know about them from other sources does apply.

We don't know what her upbringing was other than she was apart from other elves at a young age and the death of her brother drove her further from them as she grew single minded.
We see her playing with other elf childen. No reason to assume her growing up isolated in the show yet.

Do you suggest that she was allowed to join the elven forces going to Middle-Earth as a minor? Now that is completely unbelievable and even the "normie" audience would not assume that - why?

That is the narrative we are presented. Yes, Finarfin was name dropped but we don't know what being his daughter means.
We know that it is something great as it is connected to the phrase "the Golden House of" and she mentioned it before the "Commander of the Northern Armies" - and she named her father's name before that of Highking Gil-Galad. We can assume Finarfin is a bigger deal than even Gil-Galad from this statement alone. That is enough for the audience to expect a basic knowledge of courtly behaviour from her.

And even if we - the audience - do not know what that means - and even if we were never to learn all the details about it - still she as a character should know it herself and act accordingly.

It's simple and economical. Which is a storytelling choice and style that again, people may like or not. But I think the internal narrative is fairly consistent.
No, just dropping some elements from the lore for the sake of the book fans and ignoring the consequences such a namedrop should have - this is not efficient story telling to me. Better if they would leave it out altogether if they cannot handle its consequences - and it would be best imho to just change her name to that any other invented random elvish princess if the character and background of Galadriel is not something they are interested in.
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I really doubt the show will dig deeper into Gladriels past and explore any of her backgrounds and reasons, the show so far made a big effort not to do this and streamline and simplify her story and motivations as much as possible. So far we speculate it was all made on purpose because they bet on character development and growth and hope it will pay off someday during the next five or six years.I have to accept that some folks are perfectly fine with that specific character and the story so far, i don't profess to understand it, but maybe i am thinking too complicated or expect too much. The flaws i pointed at still do exist, i guess it is a matter of view how much attention and weight we give them.
 
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Odola

Well-Known Member
I really doubt the show will dig deeper into Gladriels past and explore any of her backgrounds and reasons, the show so far made a big effort not to do this and steeamline and simplyfy her story and motivations as much as possible. So far we speculate it was all made on purpose because they bet on character development and growth and hope it will pay off someday duringbthe next five or six years.I have to acceptbthat some folks are perfectly fine wirhnthat specific character and thevstory so far, i don't profess to understand it, but maybe i am thinking too complicated or expect too much. The flaws i pointed at still do exist, i guess it is a matter of view how much attention and weight we give them.
Then just name-dropping Finarfin feels like cheating the book fans - insincere and dishonest.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
In YT live chat for "Other Minds and Hands" few minutes ago it was remarked: İbrahim AydınQuestion: at the ending credits of the last ep, one of the turkish voice actors was titled for voice acting for "King Finwe" .. do you think that can be an accidental leak for maybe future flashbacks?

So we seem to be getting some Galadriel's family backstory somewhere.

Another issue:

How could Calebrimbor have the talk with Earenedil about his son Elrond?
If it was in Gondolin - where Celebrimbor was after the fall of Nargothrond (as I was told without a source named) - then Earendil was still a small child there.

And after the birth of Elrond and Elros Earendil was mostly at sea - which Celebrimbor was not - and as the son of one of the murderes of Earendil's father-in-law Dior - Celebrimbor would not be welcome to visit Elwing and her sons, especially as Elwing had the Silmaril in her possesion and Celebrimbor was a descendant of Feanor after all?
Had the small child Earendil in Gondolin have a prophecy about his far future sons - seems strange?
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I quite enjoyed episode 5, though not so much as good tv but rather from a humorous pov. I am still not a fan of that half-trained inexperiened 500 man army on 2 boats from Numenor, though they seem to have gunpowder or explosives with them... the Kemen and Isil dynamic also was rather strange and i HATED that Galadriel training scene, i dislike that sort of scenes on tv in general it is never realistic and well executed. What i disliked most was that weird constellation of the elves fading...because of their light diminishing... til.. spring? And... they want to use mithril to... restore and keep their light because... mithril was created when an elf and a balrog fought on the top of the Misty mountains...over a tree which... contained a... Silmaril and was hit by ,lightning so.. mithril now contains both good and evil... i mean WHAT???

All of that was pretty absurd. Elrond not breaking his oath while... defacto breaking his oath also felt kinda off... Durin taking the p of Gil-Galad and everybody was... also weird but also kind of fun.I grow on liking Durin i think. I was torn about the Tir Harad storyline... i liked some of it but Adar demanding Waldreg to sacrifice that boy was a bit over the top obviously evil for my taste.

What i liked most i think was the Stranger and the proto-Hobbits ("Probbits"?) Which was... nicely done, and some of the Numenor scenes, as long as Gladriel isn't involved, some generic family drama but nicely done by likeable actors who start to develop likeable Numenoreans. I am also growing fond of Halbrand i think... i'd like him and Meteorndir both being Sauron i'd really enjoy that twist, though it is unlikely.

All in all i have to say it was a mediocre episode, but still entertaining, but maybe i was just glad it wasn't as disastrous to me as episode 4 was. Was fun.
 
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Odola

Well-Known Member
What i liked most i think was the Stranger and the proto-Hobbits ("Probbits"?) Which was... nicely done, and some of the Numenor scenes, as long as Galadriel isn't involved, some generic family drama but nicely done by likeable actors who start to develop likeable Numenoreans.
Maybe some of the newer scenes were shot post-Covid. I've heard some of the very restricted scenes with few persons in previous episodes were made during the Covid times. Still they had time enough to reshoot those untill the series' release imho.
 
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Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
The mithril plot was really surprising and not in a good way. The Song of the battle of Hithaeglir (?) reminded me of Harry Potter but less well thought through. I really hope it turns out Celebrimbor already is under the influence of Sauron. The plan they’re having still feels weird but it would make things slightly less absurd.
The evil sword being a ‘key’ is also an element of the same kind as the mithril plot. Both are low quality fantasy tropes.

I was complaining about the lack of people before but was just now reminded (as you also mention) that this season was shot during covid (bizarre that I needed to be told, sorry) so that could explain some of that.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
That would be the nearest rationalisation, but the problem with that is: 1st. It does imply a lot happening off-screan 2nd. Would a random audience understand this? So far the show was far more into streamlining and simplyfying stories and backgrounds rather than complicating them and i think that is the way they're still going, not the subversive, deep-implying suggestive take.
 
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Odola

Well-Known Member
That would be the nearest rationalisation, butnthe problem withnthatnis: 1st. It does imply a lot happening off-screan 2nd. Would a random audience understand this? So farbthe show was far more into streamlining and simplyfying stories and backgrounds rather than complicating them and i think that is the way they're still going, not the subversive, deep-implying suggestive take.
For me this is an extended "The life of the Eldar is leaving Arwen" from PJ movies. But there it is a detail easy to ignore, while here it is major issue.
I still hope it is just a lie planted by Sauron to trick the elves into making the Rings of Power. Still, having them fear the destruction of their beloved forests would be a better motivation to exploit. Elves greatest fear is not to die or fade, but to see what they love passing away. In this way as they set it up in ROP there is really no difference between the fears of elves and e.g. of the Numenoreans. Once again elves are just humans with pointy-ears.

I slowly get the impression the makers of the series do not "get" elves at all and have to humanize them as much as possible to be able to deal with them. they make them mundane, a-magical and now fearing mortality.
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Another thing in the show i am trying to get my head around... time! Time is moving differently in every storyline we follow. I already pointed out the Harfoots and the stranger are on their trail probably for months, they're on foot, have to draw a small cart in a land without roads and they're making a huge amount of miles in their half-curve from western Rhun to the emyn muil borders and the later Dead marshes back into southern Rhovanion - though the exact route might not even be this clear.

Durin traveling to Lindon, even on pony, it would have taken him a month i guess so some time passed.

Numenor is far harder to interpret... it seems they have been on Numenor only a very brief time following their rushed dialogue, but Halbrand has been smithing swords and knives... and even a knife takes days, a high quality sword a week or more and he seemingly even impresses numenorean smiths by his skills! Also, while training a knight takes years, training footsoldiers takes months...
So.. i guess theyre in Numenor for several months by now.

Tirharad on the other hand... it seems like the siege and everything happened within only a few days.
 
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Odola

Well-Known Member
Another thing innthe show i am trying to ger my head around... time! Time is moving differently in every storyline we follow. I already pointed out the Harfoots and the stranger are on their trail probably for months, theyre on foot, have to draw a small cart in a land witjout roads and theyre making a huge amount if miles inntheur half-curcke from western Rhun to the emyn muil borders and the later Dead marshes back into southern Rhovanion - though the exact route might not evennbe this clear.

Durin traveling to Lindon, even on pony it would have taken him a month i guess so some time passed.

Numenor is far harder to interpret... it seems they have been on Numenor only a very brief time following their rushed dialogue, but Halbrabd gas been smitjing soeds and knives... abd even a knife takes days, a high quality sword a week or more and he seemingly even impresses numenorean smiths by his skills! Also, while training a knight takes years, training footsoldiers takes months...
So.. i guess theyre in Numenor for several months by now.

Tirharad on the other hand... it seems like the siege and everything happened within only a few days.
As some have stated "It should be spring already".
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I totally forgot about that but when that first rotten leaf fell i thought it looked like spring and i thought that Probbit festival was a harvest fest, i also thought that was spring but i think they also said something about winter which i cannot remember... and then it was still the same timeline hence the meteorite all saw the same time..
So... weird.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
I have to admit i have got stuck in EP4 in some cringe dialoge scene and just cannot manage to force myself to finish it currently. But what I have seen from clips of EP 5 they seem to make fun of "repatriations" of sacred/culturally important objects of other cultures? Thay's daring - and quite "anti-woke", actually.
 
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Odola

Well-Known Member
Who thinks the "cultists" turn up to be good people after all? The one with the stuff being maybe the other wizard - teaching the Stranger how to use a stuff to prevent his magic hurting his new body?
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I think they're some moon-sect connected to werewolves. I still don't buy into the whole blue thing...
But... are they mortals?
 
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Odola

Well-Known Member
I think they're some moon-sect connected to werewolves. I still don't buy intp the whole blue thing...
But... are they mortals?
Some of the 3 seem to be? But a moon-sect would suggest that the Stranger is the Man in the Moon. And the werevolves are his pets who got a little unruly.
 
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