Amazon series: reactions to news and rumours. (Spoiler alert!)

[JJ48]

I could totally live with the seven dwarf houses having different ethnicities, only three being european. But the elves...
I don't know.I always thought some of the Avari could be african or asian and some of the Noldor a bit more mediterranean or near eastern in appearance, but that is my personal interpretation of two single isolated, and possibly later abandoned, quotes where JRRT described some a bit darker skinned Noldor.

I was thinking mainly that what group an Elf belongs to is pretty important to the story, but especially for more casual fans, telling a Noldor from a Silvan Elf will be rather difficult, unless there are obvious, visual differences. It may not be strictly true to the lore, but it would help provide clarity so that the more important lore elements would be even clearer to the audience.

 

[Haerangil]

Yeah, and JRRT stated Teleri and Noldor looked very much alike... the high elves main feature to tell them apart from the Umanyar was the light of the trees which still reflected in their eyes!

 

[Odola]

Here's Celebrimbor, looking like a Vulcan showing off his impressive chest:

I like the color of the velvet fabric (finally, something not gold!), but not the costume design of that robe. Why don't elves have tailoring? I don't get it.

Also, perhaps not as serious as the Elrond situation, but WHY DOESN'T THIS GUY HAVE DARK HAIR?! I don't get it. Celebrimbor is the son of Curufin, who looks just like his father. Fëanor has raven-dark hair. So, uhhh? Did they just decide all elves are blond except for bow and arrow guy from the trailer?

Have far less issue with his hair colour (still I would like it to be on the darker side and maybe even with reddish shine - to remember Nerdanel) here to what I had with Elrond's (which is an important genealogical marker as a decendant of Melian) - as we do not know Celebrimbor's mother's, but with his age. He looks simply too old for an elf to me. Imho he should look as old/young as Galadriel does.

And his eyes, those should be grey like a starlit nightsky, not brown.

 

[Haerangil]

Yeah he looks ancient, should have been same age as Galadriel since he was once hitting on her and his affection played quite a role in his ambitions of ringmaking...
So he aged before his time, out of sorrow? Happens to elves... but i hope he doesn't come about as some old creep!

 

[Odola]

Yeah he looks ancient, should have been same age as Galadriel since he was once hitting on her and his affection played quite a role in his ambitions of ringmaking...
So he aged before his time, out of sorrow? Happens to elves... but i hope he doesn't come about as some old creep!

He is her half-cousin's son - she is his elder in family hierarchy - even if age-wise they could be comparable - as her half-cousins are older than her. But he for sure cannot be her elder - he could call her "auntie" - even if "most revered kinwoman" would do too.

 

[Haerangil]

Allright! But how far ARE they off agewise? Probably not very far. Can we calculate it? If elven women usually become mothers at an age of 24

 

[Odola]

Allright! But how far ARE they off agewise? Probably not very far. Can we calculate it? If elven women usually become mothers at an age of 24

Difficult - as we not even have Curufin's age, only know he ist the fifth sone of Feanor. At the time of the Oath Celebrimbor is not mentioned, so he seems to have been old enought to be removed from his mother's care but not yet "legally of age" - the quivalent of Pippin's age in TLOTR I would assume.

 

[Haerangil]

Well being the fiery character he was Feanor probably didn't lose much time and fathered his seven sons quite early and in short distances so one could guess their birthyears possibly pretty close with elveish legal age and everything...
But i am terrible at math, i tried to but when i came to conclusion that YT 1374 might be a possible birthyear for Celebrimbor i gave up,thinking," no this cannot be.. how did i get to that number anyway?"

 

[Odola]

Well being the fiery character he was Feanor probably didn't lose much time and fathered his seven sons quite early and in short distances so one could guess their birthyears possibly pretty close with elveish legal age and everything...
But i am terrible at math, i tried to but when i came to conclusion that YT 1374 might be a possible birthyear for Celebrimbor i gave up,thinking," no this cannot be.. how did i get to that number anyway?"

What with Nerdanel's years of recovery?

 

[Haerangil]

Forgot about that! Everything again from the scratch...

 

[Odola]

Forgot about that! Everything again from the scratch...

Never given birth yourself - it shows ...

 

[Haerangil]

Maybe, i'll put it on my decent dyscalculia...

 

[MithLuin]

Here is what we have from the Years of the Trees:

1169 Birth of Fëanor​

1170 Death of Míriel ( 3 )​

1185 Marriage of Finwë and Indis ( 4 )​

1190 Birth of Fingolfin ( 1 )​

1200 Birth of Lúthien ( 2 )​

1230 Birth of Finarfin ( 1 )​

1250 Dwarves enter Beleriand. Fëanor creates a new alphabet for the Elves. ( 1, 2 )​

1280 Marriage of Finarfin and Eärwen ( 1 )​

1300 Thingol builds Menegroth. Daeron invents the Runes. Birth of Turgon and of Finrod.​

1330 Orcs enter Beleriand​

1350 Nandor enter Beleriand ( 2 )​

1362 Births of Aredhel and of Galadriel ( 5 )​

1400 Melkor released ( 2 )​

1449 Fëanor begins work on the Silmarils​

1450 Fëanor completes the Silmarils​

​

Compilation found here: https://www.silmarillionwritersguild.org/node/4219​

​

Note that Fingolfin is born 5 years after the marriage of his parents, and that there is 40 year gap between Fingolfin and Finarfin ( who do have 2-3 sisters in some versions of the story).

Finrod's father is 50 when he marries. Finrod is born 20 years after the marriage of his parents, and then his youngest sister Galadriel is born 62 years later. There are at least two brother between them.

Turgon is also 62 years older than his younger sister Aredhel. His father Fingolfin is 110 when he is born. He has an older brother (Fingon), and we don't know when their parents married.


So... if Fëanor and Nerdanel married when Fëanor was 51, it would have been in the year 1220. We know Maedhros is younger than Fingolfin, but not the correlation of the ages of any of the Fëanoreans to any of their half-cousins. Fëanor and Nerdanel were likely finished raising children before he started on the Silmarils.

Here's a guess at birth years for the Fëanoreans:

Maedhros: 1225-1240​

Maglor: 1245-1260​

Celegorm: 1265-1280​

Caranthir: 1285-1300​

Curufin: 1305-1320​

Amrod and Amras: 1325-1340​

​

Note: There is at least one list of their names that puts Curufin as older than Caranthir, but this is the more typical order. ​

​

In other words, Curufin is likely a little younger than Turgon and Finrod. So, it's possible that Curufin was getting married roughly around the time that Galadriel was born, making Celebrimbor potentially born not that long after Galadriel. But Celebrimbor is almost definitely younger than Galadriel. The YT 1374 estimate is likely in the correct ball park.

I guess this show is going with the 'it's not the years, it's the mileage' interpretation of aging....

 

[Ilana Mushin]

I don't think we will know what purpose a 'mature' Celebrimbor plays out until we see the story unfold. I liked Corey's take on it in Other Hands and Minds today - that it could provide a contrast if he is a foil for Galadriel, and also politically if he represents the 'older' line of the house of Finwë in contrast with Gil-Galad and Galadriel, for example. Time will tell...

 

[Odola]

Fëanor and Nerdanel were likely finished raising children before he started on the Silmarils.

I myself would put the twins after Fëanor starts to work on the Silmarils as there seems to be a certain correlation between (half-)elvish fathers having twin son's and them having been exposed to the "radiation" of the Silmaril(s) (Monozygote twins then. As this is male dependent). But I see why he would stop having children once he concentrates on this big project - his focus shifts. But this is without any bearing on your calculation - just a side-remark.

About the mileage - Celebrimbor"s seems comparable to Galadriel's? When had he had more hardships than her before the Annatar business?

I don't think we will know what purpose a 'mature' Celebrimbor plays out until we see the story unfold. I liked Corey's take on it in Other Hands and Minds today - that it could provide a contrast if he is a foil for Galadriel, and also politically if he represents the 'older' line of the house of Finwë in contrast with Gil-Galad and Galadriel, for example. Time will tell...

That actually worries me a bit. Feels strange to have Galadriel not being put in a position of seniority above Celebrimbor - she is the daughter of the current King of the Noldor in Valinor while Celebrimbor just a great-grandson of one (and she is nearer to Finwe herself). And she is great-aunt to Gil-Galad the current High King of the Noldor in exile. Whatever Celebrimbor's detailed age, Galadriel is still his superior in the family's hierarchy.

It looks to me like thay are trying to downplay Galadriel's noble descent - which is very high - she is even connected by blood to the High King of all elves Inwe and to the ruling House of the Sindar - all things Fëanor's line is not.

She is not a random upstart in need of proving herself. For sure she would get a chair higher up the table compared to Celebrimbor at any Noldo gathering.

If they remove her inborn high rank position of power in the general elvish society - this is severely changing her character imho.

 

[Odola]

I don't think we will know what purpose a 'mature' Celebrimbor plays out until we see the story unfold. I liked Corey's take on it in Other Hands and Minds today - that it could provide a contrast if he is a foil for Galadriel, and also politically if he represents the 'older' line of the house of Finwë in contrast with Gil-Galad and Galadriel, for example. Time will tell...

That actually worries me a bit. Feels strange to have Galadriel not being put in a position of seniority above Celebrimbor - she is the daughter of the current King of the Noldor in Valinor while Celebrimbor just a great-grandson of one (and she is nearer to Finwe herself). And she is great-aunt to Gil-Galad the current High King of the Noldor in exile. Whatever Celebrimbor's detailed age, Galadriel is still his superior in the family's hierarchy. It looks to me like thay are trying to downplay Galadriel's noble descent - which is very high - she is even connected by blood to the High King of all elves Inwe and to the ruling House of the Sindar - all things Fëanor's line is not. She is not a random upstart in need of proving herself. For sure she would get a chair higher up the table compared to Celebrimbor at any Noldo gathering.

She is the woman of priviledge from the start and Celebrimbor is the dispossed kinsman in need of proving himself - when compared to her.

We have had plenty of "woman must fight for her place in society" stories. But her story simply is not one of those.

 

[Ilana Mushin]

That actually worries me a bit. Feels strange to have Galadriel not being put in a position of seniority above Celebrimbor - she is the daughter of the current King of the Noldor in Valinor while Celebrimbor just a great-grandson of one (and she is nearer to Finwe herself). And she is great-aunt to Gil-Galad the current High King of the Noldor in exile. Whatever Celebrimbor's detailed age, Galadriel is still his superior in the family's hierarchy. It looks to me like thay are trying to downplay Galadriel's noble descent - which is very high - she is even connected by blood to the High King of all elves Inwe and to the ruling House of the Sindar - all things Fëanor's line is not. She is not a random upstart in need of proving herself. For sure she would get a chair higher up the table compared to Celebrimbor at any Noldo gathering.

She is the woman of priviledge from the start and Celebrimbor is the dispossed kinsman in need of proving himself - when compared to her.

Or the deposed kinsman who feels entitled (as his father clearly did). I'm not saying I think this is what he is up to. I don't think Elvish lines of nobility need to work the same way that human ones do re. seniority. After all, all of the Noldor wanted realms of their own when they went into exile. Galadriel and Celebrimbor could be cousins who don't see eye to eye (perhaps as far as interacting with Annatar is concerned, for example). The image of Celebrimbor to me spoke of inner complexity and politics which suggests he is going to be more than 'just' a ring-smith. He and Gil-Galad presumably will interact too and I can imagine all kinds of tensions there between the cousins, and I expect a lot of debate about what the purpose of the Elves in the new age are with perhaps different views between Galadriel, Celebrimbor and Gil-Galad. I'm really interested to see what they do with that part of the tale.

 

[Odola]

Or the deposed kinsman who feels entitled (as his father clearly did). I'm not saying I think this is what he is up to. I don't think Elvish lines of nobility need to work the same way that human ones do re. seniority. After all, all of the Noldor wanted realms of their own when they went into exile. Galadriel and Celebrimbor could be cousins who don't see eye to eye (perhaps as far as interacting with Annatar is concerned, for example). The image of Celebrimbor to me spoke of inner complexity and politics which suggests he is going to be more than 'just' a ring-smith. He and Gil-Galad presumably will interact too and I can imagine all kinds of tensions there between the cousins, and I expect a lot of debate about what the purpose of the Elves in the new age are with perhaps different views between Galadriel, Celebrimbor and Gil-Galad. I'm really interested to see what they do with that part of the tale.

Yeah, having a realm of her own is Galadriel's stated goal - but she goes about this like a politician planning to win the president race in middle distant future.
She uses her mother's being Thingol's niece to become a member of his court, learns from Melian how to be queen, marries into the royal Sindar family, then goes among the Greenelves - all to get herself established and recognisable among the Sindar some of whom she plans to rule one day.

She clearly has political plans.

But being amateur warrioress who cannot even get her hair out of the way when in combat mode and does not know how to sit like a queen-in-making does not fit a far-sighted politician like her.

And she is the lone survivor of the Noldorin part of Gil-Galad's family being his great-aunt - as his father had no reported siblings. As his only Noldo elder alive in ME her word will have much weight with him.

She is one of the best connected mightiest beings in ME left in the S.A. She has no need to prove anything to anybody.


[Actually Celebrimbor trying to marry Galadriel might have been an attempt of "political rehabiltation" of himself and his line. But she prefered her own political goals to his. (And how much elves claim to marry exclusivy for romantic reasons - look at their deeds and not their words - if you look at their family trees it just so "accidently" happens that their matches are preserving social advantage and consolidating political power - how comes? hmmm ]

What people oppose mostly imho in Celebrimbor's age imho is-

1. it makes him look un-elvish as he is visibly aged.

2. him looking older that Galadriel changes the whole power dynamics of ME - Eregion was a Noldorin enclave - provincial - cooperating with dwarves also because other elvish realms kept their distance - politcally quite isolated. Celebrimbor was the one looking up to Galadriel - who was the established aknowledged entity - not the other way round.

3 for those among them who do know that - Curufin his father was a little copy of Feanor and Celebrimbor allegedly resembles his own father. As such Celebrimbor should also resemble his grandfather Feanor - who we have a description of and it is not "blonde and brown-eyed".

 

[Haakon]

 

[Haakon]

I have to confess I really like these images
EDIT: I love them.