Another data point recommendation

Phillip Menzies

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Staff member
Hi Corey,
A few sessions ago (possibly 10 or more) I recall that the words "as if" were used and the point was made that the comparison was not just a comparison, the thing the text compared it to really happened. I am reading on ahead (excuse me) and am finding the use of these two words " as if" quite interesting and I am suggesting that this be a future data point to see if Tolkien uses it consistently or alternates between just comparing to something to aid our understanding or it is a way to suggest that a certain thing is really happening.
 
When we get to Moria, does it say the shadows around the Balrog spread out as if giant wings, or like giant wings?

(For the record, I'm not terribly invested in Balrogs having wings, but I also don't find "they can't fly" definitive proof that they don't. True, they couldn't have wings as an evolutionary artifact - though first time Lord of the Rings readers wouldn't necessarily know that - and they're probably not used to attract mates, either, but wings can serve other purposes: helping maintain balance comes to mind as a most obvious example.)
 
When we get to Moria, does it say the shadows around the Balrog spread out as if giant wings, or like giant wings?

(For the record, I'm not terribly invested in Balrogs having wings, but I also don't find "they can't fly" definitive proof that they don't. True, they couldn't have wings as an evolutionary artifact - though first time Lord of the Rings readers wouldn't necessarily know that - and they're probably not used to attract mates, either, but wings can serve other purposes: helping maintain balance comes to mind as a most obvious example.)
I just checked. It says " the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings." So this is not a case of "as if" and it is comparing the shadow which is an actual thing to wings. The "as if" really jumped out at me in the Two Towers when Faramir is questioning Gollum about the name of the pass being Cirith Ungol. Gollum at first answers " 'No!' and then squealed, as if something had stabbed him." Coupled with the fact that just before that, Faramir had handed his nail knife to Frodo to cut Gollum's bonds I drew a conclusion that Frodo has gently stabbed Gollum with the nail knife. I put this situation to Twitter and the responses felt that it was Faramir's intensity that changed Gollum's mind, but I am not satisfied. Every time since then when I have read the words "as if" it seems to me as if Tolkien is using these two words to describe what is really happening but the observer is not entirely sure of the facts.
 
I don't see Frodo stabbing Gollum, not unless Gollum was trying to kill him or steal the Ring. In JRRT terms, I have always imagined that Faramir "bent his thought upon Gollum, trying to read the thoughts hidden in his mind". More like battle of wills between Faramir and Gollum, the exact mechanism of which is unclear to the reader.
 
In looking back to earlier chapters there appear to be a number of data points that either specifically describe the difference between 'as if' description and the actual outcome, or at least provide a steady external perspective; not going inside a character's awareness to actually tell us what they are thinking or doing, but merely telling us what it looks like to 'the camera'.

He weighed the Ring in his hand, hesitating, and forcing himself to remember all that Gandalf had told him; and then with an effort of will he made a movement, as if to cast it away - but he found that he had put it back in his pocket.

Also, in Three is Company, there is this line
In their dark cloaks they were as invisible as if they all had magic rings.
Which if true puts a very different colour on the description of the Hobbits' stealth abilities.

Without listing every occurrence, I think there is sufficient evidence from the early chapters to draw the conclusion that Tolkien is not using the phrase 'as if' consistently to describe what is actually happening.
That said, it does seem to be used in some places to tell the audience what is happening, but through the eyes of a character that doesn't know for certain that it is true.
 
Thank you for the data cuz. That is what I have been looking for, a pattern of usuage to help me interpret it. I am still very interested to learn what Corey makes of the "as if" with Gollum and to have him question exactly why Gollum yelled that way.
 
I am just noting another data point for reference while listening to Ep 188 nearing the end of the Council.
"All the Council sat with downcast eyes, as if in deep thought." I think there is a high probability that most people in the council are in deep thought. It is followed with "A great dread fell on him, as if he was awaiting the pronouncement of some doom ......" finishing with "At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own word, as if some other will was using his small voice." I have not finished listening to the session, but I am sure that Corey addressed the issue of how much of this was being orchestrated by the Valar. The reference to the pronouncement of some doom does not quite fit the case as this is in relation to how Frodo is feeling possibly not actual events that have happened.
I will continue to log data points here to get a sense of how Tolkien uses the words "as if.'
 
Anther data point for this thread of "as if" occasions.
In Flight to the Ford during Asfalof's final dash we get, "... the elf-horse, speeding as if on wings, passed right before the face of the foremost Rider." Corey spoke about this passage in great detail so I can go back and see if he addressed the "as if" directly. My take is that this one is a metaphor. Asfalof clearly does not have wings and we did not just step into the Magician's Nephew for a moment, but there may be some connections in the creative process of the two men. Maybe he sprouts spiritual wings at this moment as there are many spiritual aspects in this passage.
 
Another "as if" data point in ELOTR in The Ring Goes South. During the incident when something flew over the company in the cold hour before dawn. The description is from Frodo's POV. "Suddenly he saw or felt a shadow pass over the high stars, as if for a moment they faded and them flashed out again. He shivered." This one comes down to whether Frodo saw the thing or not, and he was looking up at the sky at the time. There is some doubt as to whether this is a physical thing or only a spiritual presence, so he may not have "seen' anything. If it was a purely spiritual being and there was no physical fading of the stars but I believe there was spiritual fading of their high beauty. In this situation the fading was either physical or the spiritual fading is being compared to a visual effect.
 
Another "as if" data point in ELOTR in The Ring Goes South. During the incident when something flew over the company in the cold hour before dawn. The description is from Frodo's POV. "Suddenly he saw or felt a shadow pass over the high stars, as if for a moment they faded and them flashed out again. He shivered." This one comes down to whether Frodo saw the thing or not, and he was looking up at the sky at the time. There is some doubt as to whether this is a physical thing or only a spiritual presence, so he may not have "seen' anything. If it was a purely spiritual being and there was no physical fading of the stars but I believe there was spiritual fading of their high beauty. In this situation the fading was either physical or the spiritual fading is being compared to a visual effect.

A tricky passage, Phillip. More of the uncertainty, I think, comes from 'saw or felt' and 'faded' then from the 'as if'.

In this case, one would think that a 'shadow passing over the high stars' would indeed be 'as if' they blinked off and then flashed on again. (Just an alternative description of a shadow passing over stars.) But, 'faded' is an odd word. Stars being occluded by something passing shouldn't really 'fade'. They should disappear and then reappear.

Also, 'saw or felt' is mysterious. Which was it? Or was it both? If looking up, Frodo might see stars disappearing and reappearing. 'Felt' might be an impression of a shadow from the (very faint) starlight sweeping across the ground. (Hard to detect, but who knows, it might register as 'felt').

On the whole, I suspect that JRRT was using mysterious and uncertain language mainly to create an ominous atmosphere. But, maybe he had more specific intentions that are hard to interpret?
 
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