Another idea about the boulders

[dietlbomb]

What if the boulders and the white riders were just different aspects of one underlying reality? Gandalf used his power to increase the flood's force. To us, Gandalf's abilities are strange and opaque. Perhaps Gandalf's attack wasn't either boulders or white riders, but something deeper. The boulders could be the physical manifestation of Gandalf's attack, while the white riders on white horses could be an image of the same thing. But the underlying thing is not purely physical or purely immaterial.

I think I'm getting at an explanation that relies on Aristotle's concept of hylemorphism: things are a combination of their form and material. Since Gandalf's power is largely immaterial, the visible form may look fantastic to someone like Frodo who's normal reality consists of material things.

This could be analogous to how the ring operates. To Bilbo, the ring's power just looks like it makes people invisible. But the underlying mechanic that causes the invisibility is much more complicated, the invisibility being just a side effect of the ring's true operation.

Gandalf's other abilities could be similar. Are his fireworks just like our fireworks? Or are they just a visual manifestation of some deeper magic? What about the smoke rings?


Also, why couldn't the image of the white riders on white horses have been made for the benefit of Frodo and company? Surely they could be seen as a sign of hope when Frodo quite clearly needed it.

 

[Joe Ursic]

Another idea...
I do not see why the boulders had to be related to Gandalf's magical abilities. As Elrond was readying the flood, Gandalf enlisted a team of elves to dig out and place boulders in the river so that, when the torrent was released, they were carried downstream with the water.
My biggest issue with the sentence is that Gandalf says he added a "few" touches but only lists two. To me, that is "couple," or there were one or more additional touches that we can only guess at.

 

[Kyle Winiecki]

I know I'm responding a bit late to this conversation, but o well. To me personally it really doesn't matter if the boulders are spiritual or physical. I do believe the boulders are a part of Gandalf's magic one way or the other (if they are spiritual I think it would fit with his capabilities and if physical he did break stone in the Hobbit to defeat the trolls so I don't see why he couldn't here as well causing them to break and fall into the river). I think the bigger question is why? There is (to me) the more obvious affect of the boulders rolling over the Nazgul and their horses aiding in their defeat. However I believe the bigger reason for the boulders is a spiritual means to defeat the Riders. Regardless of physical or spiritual we know they come "rolling and grinding" which spiritually speaking would strike fear even into the hearts of the Nazgul. This is a huge spiritual element in the warfare going on and probably something that helps keep Frodo from falling under their control even at the last minute. Their power is broken in part because they themselves have been defeated and broken in the spiritual warfare going on and this is partially due to the rolling and grinding boulders.

 

[Anthony Lawther]

I know I'm responding a bit late to this conversation, but o well. To me personally it really doesn't matter if the boulders are spiritual or physical. I do believe the boulders are a part of Gandalf's magic one way or the other (if they are spiritual I think it would fit with his capabilities and if physical he did break stone in the Hobbit to defeat the trolls so I don't see why he couldn't here as well causing them to break and fall into the river). I think the bigger question is why? There is (to me) the more obvious affect of the boulders rolling over the Nazgul and their horses aiding in their defeat. However I believe the bigger reason for the boulders is a spiritual means to defeat the Riders. Regardless of physical or spiritual we know they come "rolling and grinding" which spiritually speaking would strike fear even into the hearts of the Nazgul. This is a huge spiritual element in the warfare going on and probably something that helps keep Frodo from falling under their control even at the last minute. Their power is broken in part because they themselves have been defeated and broken in the spiritual warfare going on and this is partially due to the rolling and grinding boulders.

Peter Jackson's Gandalf broke stone to defeat the trolls, but JRRT's did not.
Why would 'rolling and grinding' boulders have a spiritual effect on beings that seem to be all but invulnerable to physical means of harm?

 

[Kyle Winiecki]

You're correct I clearly haven't read the Hobbit in awhile and unfortunately let PJ's film get stuck in my head. Regardless of that however the "rolling and grinding" can still have a spiritual effect. The Nazgul are not invulnerable to physical means of harm however I would argue. True they are not destroyed, but they must return to Mordor having failed they quest unable to take bodily form and as we have discussed many times on the podcast the Nazgul returning to Mordor without the Ring can't be something they are looking forward to and that would more likely than not strike fear into them. This is still a spiritual battle as it always is with the Nazgul and the effect of the boulders on them would still have spiritual significance.

 

[Anthony Lawther]

You're correct I clearly haven't read the Hobbit in awhile and unfortunately let PJ's film get stuck in my head. Regardless of that however the "rolling and grinding" can still have a spiritual effect. The Nazgul are not invulnerable to physical means of harm however I would argue. True they are not destroyed, but they must return to Mordor having failed they quest unable to take bodily form and as we have discussed many times on the podcast the Nazgul returning to Mordor without the Ring can't be something they are looking forward to and that would more likely than not strike fear into them. This is still a spiritual battle as it always is with the Nazgul and the effect of the boulders on them would still have spiritual significance.

The state of the physical forms (hröar) of the Nâzgul is unclear. Whether they still exist, but 'faded' from the world, or whether they have essentially disappeared is probably only a quibble. Either way, the only things from the physical realm that we see harming the Nâzgul are blades, and not many of those.

I'm inclined to draw a distinction between emotional and spiritual (Fëa) effects. Maybe that is the basis or our disagreement.

Everything you have described fits with the potential emotional responses of the Nâzgul (Returning to Mordor unsuccessfully would indeed be embarrassing), but does not fit with effects upon the existence of their Fëar.

An example we see that may relate to the effects upon a Fëa is with the death of Saruman. As an Istar it is unclear whether his spirit can truly be counted among the Fëar, as he started as an Ëalar, but he was incarnated:
"To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing." This does not appear to be a physical effect.