Bad Guys Story Arc for Season Two
- Thread starter Phillip Menzies
- Start date
Good question. As far as I can remember, at least one werewolf was a Maia - Draugluin. The rest were perhaps just 'of Maian descent'. That would change things for Mairon.
Maia or not, Draugluin was "a dread beast, old in evil, lord and sire of the werewolves of Angband" - so he'd be the first of them. He could be a Maia who took that form, or a Maia forced into the werewolf form by Melkor - if so, he wouldn't hold a grudge against Mairon.
What do you think about this:
We introduced Thuringwethil as one of Mairon's allies in the Debate episode. The next step should be to show Mairon trying to command the Balrogs and failing. He understands that he needs fighting power. And he finds another potential ally. That should be Tevildo - who is lurking about in Angband on his own. They make some kind of deal, but Tevildo is more or less a free agent. He agrees to join Mairon as long as there's something in it for him - and he will only fight if he is sure he will win. He can make some noise in the presence of the Balrogs, but isn't really prepared to fight them, at least as long as the numbers are as bad as they are. He and Thuringwethil will urge Mairon to find more fighters. The third step is when Mairon finds Draugluin, who already has a small flock of werewolves. Mairon feels a bit intimidated by the ferocious beast at first, but this makes him realize that this is a game of fear - and he finds the power within himself to cause fear in Draugluin. He becomes Draugluin's master. He now has a smal posse, but only enough to barely defend himself if ot would come to a fight between himself and some Balrogs. He needs more. So he turns to the Project.
We introduced Thuringwethil as one of Mairon's allies in the Debate episode. The next step should be to show Mairon trying to command the Balrogs and failing. He understands that he needs fighting power. And he finds another potential ally. That should be Tevildo - who is lurking about in Angband on his own. They make some kind of deal, but Tevildo is more or less a free agent. He agrees to join Mairon as long as there's something in it for him - and he will only fight if he is sure he will win. He can make some noise in the presence of the Balrogs, but isn't really prepared to fight them, at least as long as the numbers are as bad as they are. He and Thuringwethil will urge Mairon to find more fighters. The third step is when Mairon finds Draugluin, who already has a small flock of werewolves. Mairon feels a bit intimidated by the ferocious beast at first, but this makes him realize that this is a game of fear - and he finds the power within himself to cause fear in Draugluin. He becomes Draugluin's master. He now has a smal posse, but only enough to barely defend himself if ot would come to a fight between himself and some Balrogs. He needs more. So he turns to the Project.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I'd just like to point out that we have werewolf creatures involved in the War to End All Worlds S01E013.
Thanks for reminding me. That fits with Draugluin hanging around somewhere in the catacombs of Angband with a small gang of werewolves.
Once again I'm a bit reluctant to have it be inflation in the Maiar. The thing that Sauron is a Maia is a big deal and I don't think it fits to have Maia spirits trapped in wolves to do his bidding. We have the feared balrogs as Maiar, but there are a lot of powerful creatures and spirits that are not. Huan is a hound of Valinor, but not a Maia. Dragons like Glaurung or Ancalagon are creations of Morgoth and not Maiar. I guess we have chosen Ungoliant to be a Maia, but as far as I know that's not canon. I understand that particular choice though, and she's really powerful. We have the Watcher in the Waters and Nameless ones in the deep. Let's not forget Tom Bombadil.
In short I think there are enough mysterious forces in Arda to make threatening enemies withouth having to make them Maiar.
In short I think there are enough mysterious forces in Arda to make threatening enemies withouth having to make them Maiar.
I'm convinced now that we shouldn't give the viewers the theoretic details on the werewolves. Let's not make them a part of the Project. I'm fine with having them be 'some kind of spirits' - but mainly, they're fantastic beasts. Furthermore, they are Melkor's subjects to begin with. We presented them in season one, and didn't show their origins, so the time for that has passed, and we can now just accept them as a group of evil creatures that become part of the power struggle in Angband. Mairon meets them and brings them under his growing shadowy wings.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
My impression of the dragons is that Glaurung is a Maia. His monstrous body is due to the craft of Melkor, but his intelligence, his ability to cast spells, that strongly indicates a Maiar spirit. Since we already know that Maiar can reproduce, it would seem logical that the other dragons are bred from him. For example, Smaug was relatively young when he took Erebor, indicating that he was born some time after the War of Wrath.
Melkor cannot create intelligent creatures. Not from scratch anyway. That power belongs to Eru alone. He can bend and twist existing creatures to his will, and he can embody the spirits of his followers, and perhaps put a fair amount of his own power into them so that they are of greater power than before (Glaurung, Ancalagon, and so forth). Remember that Aule could not create sentient creatures, but only mindless automatons. We do not see this with the Orcs, the werewolves, the vampires, the trolls, or the dragons.
Orcs definitely are influenced by the will of their masters, as evidenced by their confusion at the Black Gate when the will of Sauron is withdrawn from them. However, if they were merely extensions of his own will, as the Dwarves are to Aule, they would either drop dead, or go into catatonia when the Ring was destroyed.
I agree that if there is one dragon that can be a Maia, it's Glaurung. That can make sense. But are you completely sure of this? We know what Morgoth has been able to do with his malice. And yes - with 'create' I do not mean create the way like Eru can, but twist and pour malice to 'make' something completely fell and unrecognizable. If we say that Glaurung is the only dragon Maia, it would be a bit weird that the dragons that came after him could be even stronger. Especially as the Valarindi idea was abandoned. Luthién was daughter of Melian, and even though she was a very powerful one she went on to the halls of Mandos as "just" an elf.
What if Morgoth poured parts of his spirit, his power, into twisting and breeding ordinary beasts into these fell creatures? We know that the trolls were 'made' by Morgoth in mockery of the Ents. As you say the creatures Morgoth rule over are not mindless - not even the trolls. Morgoth drained himself when pouring his malice into the world and the 'creation' of dragons and so on could be a part of that.
For all I know I could be the stupid cave-troll in this discussion, but I think this is an interesting subject to talk about. There are a lot of mysteries in Arda and the nature of the different spirits and creatures might be one of them.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I agree that this is something that Professor Tolkien was not entirely explicit about. I do see some degree of danger, however, in giving Melkor the ability to create sentience. If he has that ability, he has access to the Secret Fire. He can indeed twist existing creatures, and possibly even create new ones from whole cloth, but he cannot make them sentient. That is a power that belongs to Iluvatar alone, as we saw with the creation of the dwarves.
Glaurung may be the only one of the dragons who was an embodied Maia, but the others were his descendants. We can definitely say that Melkor poured greater and greater measures of his own power into the dragons, culminating in Ancalagon the Black. That decays over time, and we eventually get dragons like Smaug, who, while great and terrible in his own right, was clearly no match for the more ancient dragons of the First age.
Trolls are indeed tricky, but could have had their origin in Orcs, with the addition of Stone Golem features. The drawback of this is their weakness to sunlight.
Melkor can pour part of his own spirit into the creatures he makes, but he cannot make them have independent intelligence. The operation for the creation of Glaurung, for example, seems to be that Melkor took a species of existing reptiles, and bred them to gargantuan size. He then took one of his Maiar followers and embodied him in one of these reptiles, exerting a great deal of his own power to do that. Obviously, breeding is less power-intensive for him, and would work for a while. But, he realizes that he wants the dragons to be more than they are, and so he begins to pour more and more of his own power into them as he breeds them for flight.
Werewolves could easily be very similar, only he puts less work into them than he does the dragons, so by the time we get to the Lord of the Rings, they are merely Wargs. Still quite dangerous; larger, and more intelligent than regular wolves, but no longer threats like Draugluin or Carcharoth.
On the other hand, there has been a good deal of talk of disembodying the spirits of Elves in the Orcification process, so these could also be spirits that are Elvish in origin. That would require a much greater outlaying of power on Melkor's part, I think.
As far as the SSNOP goes, I want it to be met with constant failures and setbacks. It is possible that Sauron does not understand the limitations of the creative power of the Valar, and thinks he should be able to make new servants for Melkor (just like the Children) from scratch. But then....he can't. He fails and fails again. The repeated failures ramp up his frustration, which he then takes out on the captive elves.
Thus, the 'convert the captured elves to be followers of Melkor' project and the 'make an orc army' project are originally...separate. Eventually, they end up...blended. At first, he is just studying the Children for inspiration on how to make his own version. The final blending/merging of these two projects can await the return of Morgoth, who is thus the one 'responsible' for the final stage of corruption.
As for werewolves, Season 5 is going to give us Carcaroth being handfed by Morgoth. So if we don't have Drauglin, father of werewolves, in season 2...we will need him in Season 4. The association of Sauron with werewolves is strong, so I think that having Drauglin now is fine. Also, the prophecy of Huan meeting his end when he meets the greatest werewolf ever should be spoken in Valinor (probably when Huan becomes Celegorm's dog), sometime after the release of Melkor from prison (so Episodes 8-11). It might be nice for the audience to already have met Drauglin, so we think that Huan and Drauglin are being set up as epic foes....and that will add to the tension of the Huan/Drauglin fight scene in Season 5, as some people might be thinking this is it, Huan is going down.
Thus, the 'convert the captured elves to be followers of Melkor' project and the 'make an orc army' project are originally...separate. Eventually, they end up...blended. At first, he is just studying the Children for inspiration on how to make his own version. The final blending/merging of these two projects can await the return of Morgoth, who is thus the one 'responsible' for the final stage of corruption.
As for werewolves, Season 5 is going to give us Carcaroth being handfed by Morgoth. So if we don't have Drauglin, father of werewolves, in season 2...we will need him in Season 4. The association of Sauron with werewolves is strong, so I think that having Drauglin now is fine. Also, the prophecy of Huan meeting his end when he meets the greatest werewolf ever should be spoken in Valinor (probably when Huan becomes Celegorm's dog), sometime after the release of Melkor from prison (so Episodes 8-11). It might be nice for the audience to already have met Drauglin, so we think that Huan and Drauglin are being set up as epic foes....and that will add to the tension of the Huan/Drauglin fight scene in Season 5, as some people might be thinking this is it, Huan is going down.
Maiar are not, by definition, powerful. They are lesser spirits than the Valar. Some are powerful, some are not. Some, like Sauron, are quite powerful in their own right and always were. Others, like Tilion, don't seem to be particularly powerful. Considering Thorondor and Glaurung to be Maiar makes sense to me.
We did not 'make' Ungoliant one of the Maiar in the 1st Season. She is there, and she had no connections to the Valar or Maiar. We show her meeting Melkor, Nessa and Tulkas...but never show her in the Timeless Halls or at Almaren. She is meant to be a loner/enigma type.
We did not 'make' Ungoliant one of the Maiar in the 1st Season. She is there, and she had no connections to the Valar or Maiar. We show her meeting Melkor, Nessa and Tulkas...but never show her in the Timeless Halls or at Almaren. She is meant to be a loner/enigma type.
Forced embodiment of Maiar - once the Maiar engage in certain activities, they are locked into their physical form and lose their shape-changing abilities. In the case of the balrogs, we chose the destruction of the lamps as that moment for them, and they've remained fanatic to Melkor despite this. For Melkor, it will be his decision to destroy the Trees (leaving him a dark lord forever, unable to heal his scars/wounds, even). For Melian, it is marrying Thingol and giving birth to Lúthien. For Sauron, it will be losing his body in the drowning of Numenor.
Thus, I think Drauglin will remain wolf-like once he has offspring in wolf-form. Thuringwethil can stay a shape-changer until her death. Tevildo...eh, whatever
And for fun: a picture of the liger Hercules, clearly a big (and mostly tame!) big cat, casting for Tevildo?
Thus, I think Drauglin will remain wolf-like once he has offspring in wolf-form. Thuringwethil can stay a shape-changer until her death. Tevildo...eh, whatever
And for fun: a picture of the liger Hercules, clearly a big (and mostly tame!) big cat, casting for Tevildo?
Okay, that makes sense. Sorry, I must have misheard that. There's a lot of information and talk in the podcasts, so I might mix some stuff up after a while.
I think there's a lot of potential for cool fights with Huan. To maximize what the audience get from these confrontations, the adversaries should get some screen time before to show how tough they are. That means when Huan fights Tevildo it's not just Huan fighting a cat, but the Cat - Tevildo. I also agree that it could be cool to make him more than just a beast to differentiate him from the other enemies. If he's the proud and strong, something like the liger/tiger could fit. It really worked in The Jungle Book (you should all see this movie).
Shere Khan the tiger (The Jungle Book):
However, he could also be more sneaky and agile. Something like a stronger and a more fierce Bagheera from the same movie:
Personally I think the latter is the most interesting and could potentially be more rewarding as a villain. I think it might require more of a set up though. But of course - either could work fine!
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Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Tevildo vs. Draugluin
Yes, that's what I'm thinking as well. Perhaps with sabre teeth, but not too long.Something like a stronger and a more fierce Bagheera from the same movie:
ouzaru
Well-Known Member
I was under the impression that all Maiar were able to change their skins as they liked, that becoming a spirit and putting on whatever form was part and partial to being one of the Maiar. By extension, that would mean that the Istari were kind of a different animal (I do not think we should be given to understand that Gandalf walked around Lorien with robes and a beard), not entirely dissimilar from the werewolves and dragons etc. that we're going on about here.
The question of whether or not Ungoliant was a Maia was mostly ambigious and left open to interpretation largely because we could not, as a group, stop arguing about which it ought to be. I personally think the audience will probably assume she is a Maia without otherwise being explicitly told that she isn't, because they're pretty much the only people-like things we've got, but that's really up to the audience.
I'm still a fan of the werewolves being Mairon's posse, and would really like to see them in Season Two. I feel like it might be worth having the Balrogs being bullies to the other allies Melkor gathered to himself , and they all sort of come together out of necessity. Mairon laments the loss of a strong leader to keep the rabble in line, and challenges Gothmog out of a desire to keep order until the Master returns, kind of thing. In the mean time, he's "proselytizing" to the elves, or whatever, while also studying what, exactly, they are, and how they function. Melkor hates the Elves and wants to dominate them, but I think Mairon is impressed withtheir "craftsmanship", as it were, and really wants to understand their biology and spirituality in much the same way Aule was in building the dwarves. This leads him to his work with his fellow Maia? I know we're supposed to have this well hashed out for Friday, but maybe we can go over it some more in the Outline Roundtable on Sunday if it's not well and truly settled on Friday.
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I agree that all Ainur seem to be able to take a body or form that they like. But it doesn't seem to be common to be able to change shape at will - I can't think of more than a few exclusive examples. Those who do change seem to do so just a few times and keep to the new forms over longer periods of time (like Sauron), and they seem to like to hold on to their form unless something drastic happens (Gandalf). Thuringwethil seems to be the only prominent Maia who is a shapechanger in the way the word is commonly used. The werewolves certainly aren't.
Yes, I agree, this is the way to go.
I think that Mairon views the elves as lesser beings. He finds their biology and spirituality fascinating, as you say, and he works to understand them, but he doesn't relate to them.
I reapeat my idea for the development in Angband, slightly developed and with the addition of Ouzaru's ideas:
1. Thuringwethil is presented as Mairon's ally and spy.
2. Gothmog and the Balrogs bully everyone else. Mairon wants order and is trying to command the Balrogs but fails. He understands that he needs fighting power.
3. Mairon finds Tevildo - who is lurking about in Angband on his own. They make some kind of deal, but Tevildo is more or less a free agent. He agrees to join Mairon as long as there's something in it for him - and he will only fight if he is sure he will win. He can make some noise in the presence of the Balrogs, but isn't really prepared to fight them, at least as long as the numbers are as bad as they are.
4. Mairon is trying to understand his elven prisoners but he is constantly disturbed by the Balrogs. Tevildo and Thuringwethil urge Mairon to find more fighters. They suggest that he should try to win the werewolves over to his side.
5. Mairon finds Draugluin, who leads his small flock of werewolves. A lot of their kin were killed in the War to begin all wars. Draugluin realizes that the Balrogs have too much power and that they should do something but he doesn't immidiately recognize Mairon as his leader. Mairon feels a bit intimidated by the ferocious beast at first, but this makes him realize that this is a game of fear - and he finds the power within himself to cause fear in Draugluin. He becomes Draugluin's master. He now has a smal posse, but only enough to barely defend himself if ot would come to a fight between himself and some Balrogs. He needs more. So he turns to the Project.
It's only a sketch but what do you think? What's missing?
Basically....yes, but. Valar (and by extension, Maiar) wear bodies like clothing, and can thus change them at will. Being embodied is 'optional' for them, and they can abandon a damaged body or change forms....as a starting point. We are explicitly told that Yavanna has multiple forms, for instance - she can appear as a woman or as a tall tree.
There are limitations, though. If they inhabit a body for a very long time, they can get used to it, and it can be painful to change or abandon it. Thus, they might have a 'default' form that they typically take. Or, something can happen to make their form less a matter of choice. Melkor can change his appearance, and does...until he takes on the aspect of the Dark Lord and teams up with Ungoliant to destroy the Trees. From that point, he is 'locked in' to his form. He cannot heal the wounds from the silmarils burning his hands, or Fingolfin cutting his ankle, or Thorondor scratching his face. He cannot change to a different, more 'fair' form any longer.
It would be tempting to think that 'going evil' is what cost him this ability, but Sauron maintains his own shapeshifting skill up until the Drowning of Numenor in the 2nd Age. That, followed by the Ring being cut from his dead body at the end of the Last Alliance, seriously cost him. He was reduced to a 'shadow' for a long time, and was no longer able to pull off Annatar-form. So, evil-ness does not intrinsically prevent shape-shifting. Begetting children in an embodied form DOES, though.
Drauglin, Lord of Werewolves, cannot shape-shift (ie, appear as a wolf and as a humanoid) that we know of. He could probably, however, abandon his body and exist in just spirit-form, if he had to. Whatever is going on with the Wargs in FotR suggests that arrows aren't really effective weapons against them, and they leave no dead bodies around. But whatever their abilities/limitations are, this has nothing to do with Sauron. He may be able to 'enhance' them in some ways, but that's more Morgoth's thing. Sauron is a necromancer, so forcing spirits into bodies not their own is something he would do....it's just not where werewolves came from....right?
Thuringwethil, as a spy/messenger and close associate of Sauron, probably *should* be able to naturally shift her shape between bat and humanoid. Mostly because we can't have her be a giant bat all the time.