Bad Guys Story Arc for Season Two

Great ideas alltogether!

Additionally, some thoughts on the creation process. When we want to lay out the story arc of the bad guys, here that of Mairon/Thu/Sauron, it could be helpful to also think about the story arc of his necromancy skills on the long term. So, what supposedly begins with breeding werewolves, torturing elves, twisting elve's minds and spirits in the 1st age, culminates in the creation of the Nine, i.e. the Ring-wraiths, i.e. the Nazgûl in the 2nd age. This comparison could help us to understand his way of necromancy.

Let's start with the Ring-wraiths, how does it work. Or how do I think it works. You may quickly correct me, if I'm wrong. Sauron gives nine powerful rings to nine mortal men, prolonging their lives, but ultimately makes them fade to the Unseen world. While in the beginning they exist in both worlds, their spirit consumes their body, which makes them fade. In this form they are bound by their rings, which are themselves bound by the one ring that is in Saurons control. As I understand it, Sauron is using the nine rings as a tool to transfer the mens spirits to the Unseen world to which he has access as a Maiar and he can control them.

Right, now in the 1st age he does not have the rings of power, thus no transformation tool. And this time the subjects are elves not mortal men. But assuming the process is the same, he has to somehow seperate the spirit from the body to control either of them, i.e bringing the elves spirit to the Unseen world, where he can control it.However, in the 1st age he does not have the power yet to let the spirit interact in the real (Seen) world without a body. Thus all he has to do afterwards is to return the controlled spirit back into its former body, which may degrade in the mean time and look somewhat different, depending on how long that transformation process takes. So the 'proto-orc' would have the elves body and its spirit, but now cotrolled by Mairon.

If we would follow that recipe, we would still have several options:
1) Instead of rings Mairon uses other tools to focus his power
2) He has to 'manually' seperate elven spirits and bodies with a ritual in physical form
3) He leaves his body and acts directly in the Unseen world in his spiritual form, direct spirit control

In all cases Melkor could speed things up and boost the orc creation process.

I'm not sure this is too much detail already and too much speculation. But on the otherside we have to portray things on screen somehow. Err ... I mean we treat it as if we had to portray things on screen.
 
It would be rather interesting to see something of the breaking process in the "Wraith-World". I do think that our kind Co-Hosts wanted to avoid actual depiction of the Orcification process, leaving it something of a mystery.
 
Everyone is adamant that there will be no orc breeding on screen, for the obvious reason that no one wants to see or hear that. And the Hosts do want to maintain some level of mystery as to what the orcs are. But I think that wraith-world torture may be something we can show on screen.....
 
I am okay showing Sauron interacting with the captive elves, 'studying' them and trying to convert them to Melkor-worship. He should not be wholly unsuccessful there.

Then, there can be another project, where he tries to follow in Aulë's footsteps and build himself an army. This...is an utter failure. He cannot get anything to stay alive or be sentient. We won't show much of this, but there may be some cut off screams, blank staring eyes, or blood washing down a drain from time to time. His workshop should resemble a serial killer's lair. Not sure when he'll start zeroing in on elf-spirits, but eventually he's going to figure out that that is what is missing from his own creatures.....

We don't show the final results til Morgoth returns next season, but, we can maybe show a few peeks at the process here.
 
I'm thinking about Mairon's arc partially in terms of A. increase and decrease of power and B. increase and decrease of evil.
We see Melkor growing steadily in evil, but overall diminishing in power. To me at least, the impact he has on the people and landscape around him seems more tremendous than the impact that Manwe has, but that seems less because he is more powerful than Manwe and more because...well, it is more exciting to watch a building being smashed to destruction with explosives and wrecking balls than it is to watch it being built over the course of months or years, unless you are the one doing the building, maybe.
The relative nature of the entertainment value of construction vs destruction aside, Melkor's pursuit all encompassing domination eventually makes him weaker and easier to stab, right?
I feel like I have a better handle on at which point in the story Melkor is at his most powerful. Is Mairon more complex? It seems a bit like he gets more powerful and more evil at the same time, but that might be because I don't know much about what he was capable of Pre-Evilness. When is he at his most powerful? If we made a chart with lines showing his Power and Evil rating, what would that look like?
 
Agreed, we should keep the Orcification process itself a mistery. If we are showing peeks of necromancy portrayed in the wraith-world each time Mairon does it, the viewer can reconnect with the visual pattern through the ages of middle-earth and seasons of silm film. But would he be the only one to have access to or power in the wraith-world?

Yes, I think too Mairon is more complex than other bad guys, maybe even more than Melkor. He is also cunning and tactical without using magic powers, like when he provokes the downfall of Numenor. But when is he most powerful? A good question. The forging of the rings and the dominion over middle earth in the 2nd/3rd age are times when he seems allmighty. But the good guys are not as numerous and powerful as in the 1st age. So, it's probably a relative power we are looking at. Maybe in the 1st age elves were just too awesome, no time to shine for Mairon.
 
MithLuin said:
Not sure when he'll start zeroing in on elf-spirits, but eventually he's going to figure out that that is what is missing from his own creatures.....
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Didn't we decide that Melkor was the brain behind the SSNOP and Mairon the contractor? That it wasn't his idea but Melkor's?
 
The creation of orcs has to have Morgoth's signature on it, not Sauron's. So, the initial idea to kidnap them should be his, and the final step that actually turns them into orcs should also be his. Sauron is working on the project, but not yet fully evil enough to do this on his own.
 
I agree that we have to show that, ultimately, the SSNOP was Melkor's idea initially. That it benefited Mairon was a lucky (for Mairon) side effect. This means, however, that somehow we have to show Melkor's involvement in some fashion. Do we have Mairon being in Valinor when Melkor is unchained and have Mairon sidle up to Melkor, whisper in his ear, and then we see an evil grin appear on Melkor's face? Do we show Mairon working in his lab on the design for orcs (glimpsed but never clearly shown) and suddenly (ala Batman) Melkor is standing right behind him looking over his shoulder and nodding in approval?

That raises another question: how do we show/explain the absence of Mairon (and Melkor) from Valinor while this is going on? We have seen that for all the power that the Valar possess, they still have the limitations of the physical world when in their physical form so they would have to actually travel to Middle Earth and Angband. I assume that Mairon isn't being watched so his absences aren't that big a deal, but when Melkor is released, you would think that someone would keep an eye on him and wonder why he would disappear for a time. Unless, of course, Mairon volunteers to be the one who 'watches over' Melkor. Nevermind. :)
 
Mairon(Sauron) will be in Angband for the entirety of Season 2 (not in Valinor).

Melkor will remain in Valinor, as a prisoner or on probation. Season 2 ends with Melkor/Morgoth going back to Middle Earth and being reunited with the balrogs (and thus going to Angband).

So, if we want to have any direct communication between Sauron and Melkor during the Season, we might want to consider telepathic communication across long distances? I recommend waiting until Melkor is released from Mandos for that.
 
Karita Alexander said:
I feel like I have a better handle on at which point in the story Melkor is at his most powerful. Is Mairon more complex? It seems a bit like he gets more powerful and more evil at the same time, but that might be because I don't know much about what he was capable of Pre-Evilness. When is he at his most powerful? If we made a chart with lines showing his Power and Evil rating, what would that look like?
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Sauron's Ring complicates his Power arc. Morgoth steadily uses up more and more of his own native power, investing himself heavily into 'Arda Marred'. By the end of the First Age, Morgoth is weaker than Sauron will become (despite starting as the most powerful of the Ainur).

Sauron may have to invest some of his native power to get stuff done, but he's much more miserly about this. So, I would say that his power level is fairly steady throughout the First Age, though his evil-ness is increasing. Once he forges the Ring in the 2nd Age, he's managed to harness that power so he can use it without depleting it. This makes him *significantly* more powerful. So, most powerful Sauron ever is going to be Annatar after the death of Celebrimbor, I would think. He loses some of his power in the destruction of Numenor, and even more in his overthrow by the Last Alliance. He then slowly builds up his power again throughout the 3rd Age, not returning to his late-2nd-Age powers because he does not yet have the Ring. The destruction of the Ring lays him lower than he was post-Last Alliance (so absolute nadir) and he stays there.

Most of this is based on Tolkien's essay on the subject in 'Morgoth's Ring'. (Which I haven't read lately, so feel free to correct anything I left out).
 
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Ren said:
But would [Mairon] be the only one to have access to or power in the wraith-world?
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NO. Definitely not. Any of the Valar/Maiar have access to the wraith-world, as do any elves who have been to Valinor and seen the light of the Trees. Tom Bombadil can see Frodo perfectly clearly when he slips the Ring on, as the wraith world is not invisible to him. Gandalf explains to Frodo that he saw Glorfindel as he was 'on the other side' when he saw him as a shining figure. Mairon would have considerably more power than the elves in this world, though, and perhaps feels it is easier to dominate the wills of others in this realm. There has to be a motivation for him to utilize the wraith-world, and more power for him there than in the physical realm seems the obvious reason for him to go there.

Basically, the only ones with no access to this realm are: Humans, Dwarves, Hobbits, Elves who have not been to Valinor....with the exception of any of these creatures having a Ring. [I don't really know about ents or eagles, to be fair.] Dwarves are particularly difficult to dominate, so it is possible that dragging their spirits(?) into the wraith-world has no effect.
 
MithLuin said:
NO. Definitely not. Any of the Valar/Maiar have access to the wraith-world, as do any elves who have been to Valinor and seen the light of the Trees.
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And yet, Sauron is THE necromancer. The only person to be called that, so far as I can remember, in all of Tolkien's works. What unique power/gift of Illuvatar is he corrupting to earn that dubious distinction?
 
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Marielle said:
And yet, Sauron is THE necromancer. The only person to be called that, so far as I can remember, in all of Tolkien's works. What unique power/gift of Illuvatar is he corrupting to earn that dubious distinction?
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So I have an idea, though maybe he does this not with orcs, but something else. But I think he starts this with Orcs.

Elves, when they die, go to the Halls of Mandos. Do Orcs go to the Halls of Mandos? Maybe Sauron earned the name Necromancer, because he found a way, eventually, to not only prevent those spirits of the children of Iluvatar from going to the halls of Mandos (or at least preventing them from going where they're supposed to), but forces those old spirits on to new generations. It would be work that would have to be done in the wraith-world. Forcing a type of reincarnation allows him even more control over the spirits of his army; this way, Sauron doesn't have to deal with a new spirit every generation. It would be a warping of death, spirit, and life that maybe no one else quite accomplished.

After creating the Rings, and the attempted domination over the wills and spirits of others that represented, and that failure, the necromancy idea (control over where a spirit goes and what it does in death) allows Sauron absolute control over a spirit, ie: The Nazgul. The Nazgul was a success of an independent servant that who obeys Sauron utterly. The next logical step is finding a way to get an army where Sauron has or can have that kind of control. So he needs a way to keep old spirits around in new bodies to reduce training and speed acceptance.
The more I think about this, the creepier it gets.

I also think this would probably be the end, final step, of a very long process. Or maybe he does something else to earn the title of Necromancer.
 
No, that's about right. Spirits of the dead who refuse the summons to Mandos (for whatever reason) kinda roam around Middle Earth. Tolkien refers to them as the 'hungry Houseless' because after awhile they *really* regret not having a body any more, and yearn for one more than anything. This makes them dangerous, and it is possible for them to 'possess' someone or something. Sauron's role of Necromancer involves...facilitating this.

And because everything is on the internet...here's the passage from Laws and Customs of the Eldar for those not familiar with this idea:

In these after-days more and more of the Elves, be they of the Eldalië in origin or be they of other kinds, who linger in Middle-earth now refuse the summons of Mandos, and wander houseless in the world, unwilling to leave it and unable to inhabit it, haunting trees or springs or hidden places that once they knew. Not all of these are kindly or unstained by the Shadow.
(...)
For the Unbodied, wandering in the world, are those who at the least have refused the door of life and remain in regret and self-pity. Some are filled with bitterness, grievance and envy. Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord [Morgoth] and do his work still, though he himself is gone. They will not speak truth or wisdom. To call on them is folly. To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one's own will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth, and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant.

Some say that the Houseless desire bodies, though they are not willing to seek them lawfully by submission to the judgment of Mandos. The wicked among them will take bodies, if they can, unlawfully. The peril of communing with them is, therefore, not only the peril of being deluded by fantasies or lies: there is peril also of destruction. For one of the hungry Houseless, if it is admitted to the friendship of the living, may seek to eject the fëa [soul] from its body; and in the contest for mastery the body may be gravely injured, even if it be not wrested from its rightful habitant. Or the houseless may plead for shelter, and if it is admitted, then it will seek to enslave its host and use both its will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them.
​
Apparently the game 'Shadow of Mordor' relies on wraiths rather heavily, and depicts both dead elves and humans sticking around for revenge purposes, and even possessing people. I have not played it and don't know the story, though, so I'll let someone who knows about that chime in if they want to comment on that.
 
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Coincidentally, I'm right in the middle of re-playing Shadow of Mordor. The plot and plot devices are... interesting. Simply put, the character you play is a Gondorian who is assigned to the Black Gate during the time between the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. Your character's family is killed by orcs and you are sacrificed as part of a blood ritual to bring back Celebrimbor to either offer Sauron clues as to how to find the One Ring or reforge it (that's not made clear). So, your character is basically resurrected thanks to the possession of your body by Celebrimbor. In addition to being a kickass Gordorian Ranger, you now also have the Wraith powers of Celebrimbor. This means that you can enter the Wraith World which allows you to identify orcs and orc leaders and also things like finding healing plants for restoring health.

As you gain in experience, you develop the ability to 'brand' orcs and force them to follow your will. The eventual goal is for you to 'take over' so much of Mordor that you challenge the Black Hand and then eventually Sauron himself. Of course, you get handed your derriere by Sauron, but get saved at the last second by the spirit of Celebrimbor. They do take a huge liberty with the established history of Middle Earth by saying that the reason why Celebrimbor gained so much power but also was forced to remain on earth as a Wraith was that when he was initially betrayed by Sauron, he took the Ring for himself, raised an army and was about to defeat Sauron when the Ring slipped off his finger and jumped onto Sauron's finger.

My understanding is that the reason why Celebrimbor and your character 'remain' on Middle Earth is because of Sauron's intervention. And that the powers that Wraith Celebrimbor gains are because of the power he 'shared' when he wore the ring. Which is fine, until the ending (which I won't fully reveal) throws that carefully constructed cosmology out the window just to ensure that a sequel could happen.

Its a good game as far as it goes, but when it does take liberties with Tolkien, its takes some whoppers.
 
Thanks MithLuin and Ray for the insights, I was not familiar with all of it. If Mairon/Sauron has the power to prevent elven spirits from going to the halls of Mandos and later can "convince" these spirits to possess a body at his service, then that's all we need to develop his necromancy story.

So, there are only three villains that create orcs: Morgoth in the 1st age, Sauron in the 2nd and 3rd age, and Saruman during the Lord of the Rings story. It's interesting that both Maiar are initially connected to Aulë, the maker. I wonder whether their talent and interest for sub-creation has been placed in their hearts from the beginning ...
 
Hmmmm, is this possibly a way to use Thuringwethil? Since we have no other real way for there to be interaction between Angband and Melkor, could we have a scene where Melkor meets with Thuringwethil for an update on the SSNOP? I sort of like the idea, but if we stick to the "oh, maybe Melkor's a good guy' conceit, then we eliminate any possibility of him meeting up with his old cronies before the kinstrife. Could we have a meeting after Melkor is kicked out of Formenos by Feanor? Sometime in the subsequent episode, we see Melkor meeting with Thuringwethil and getting a status report on how things are in Middle Earth. Heck, we could even have Mairon riding on Thuringwethil's back for a face to face meeting with Melkor.

We can just do establishing scenes in Angband, a sort of "Meanwhile in Middle Earth" moment as well. But I think its a good idea to keep Mairon in the audience's minds, even though at this point, he's still peripheral to what's going on in Valinor.
 
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