Balrogs

It would still be Maeglin who brought the knowledge to Gondolin, but it would pass through him from Eöl. So Sauron would teach Eöl, who taught Maeglin, who taught the smiths of Gondolin.
 
Haakon said:
It would still be Maeglin who brought the knowledge to Gondolin, but it would pass through him from Eöl. So Sauron would teach Eöl, who taught Maeglin, who taught the smiths of Gondolin.
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That puts Sauron somehow in the know that Maeglin would one day end up in Gondolin. How would we accomplish this?
 
Sauron teaching eol? Doesn't sound convincing...

For how long was maeglin absent from gondolin after he had been captured? If we wish to have him as saurons pupil for some time - and sauron might want to play with his likeable side if he wants to corrupt maeglin - it must take some time. Time in which his absence from gondolin does not look strange to anyone!

Another possibility would be: sauron does not capture maeglin at all but maeglin secretly slips out of anghabar on and off to meet with sauron unnoticed - maybe nor even knowing who sauron really is.

But this would mean : sauron either secretly knows the position of gondolin and keeps it secret from morgoth, or he himself does not know that maeglin is from gondolin! Or he is suspecting it but chooses not to capture and torture maeglin but to spy on him in other ways instead.

Maybe he has his own plans with maeglin and then gothmogs thugs capture maeglin and destroy his scheme ... That would be a dangerous position for sauron if he gets caught! He could choose to destroy maeglins mind to rescue himself..

But then again this would not fit to our version in which sauron wants to use maeglin to get rid of gothmog. Because in this case sauron would know of maeglin and gondolin and has already planned gondolins fall and the use of the balrogs as cannonfodder.

In lost tales gondolin falls because maeglin helps morgorh in creating magical siege- craft - i a way just the other way around than to our version , and personally i like the lt version better so far!
 
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Or we chose to have sauron split maeglins mind into two personalities: one is completely fallen and willingly collaborating with sauron while the other half is completely unaware of this. And it's the good side - dr jeckyll maeglin - who makes swords for gondolin. Also not very convincing ...
 
I'm not comfortable with this stuff about Sauron helping the Elves of Gondolin. It was an unusual situation that led to Eregion's fall, with Sauron successfully masquerading as a messenger of the Valar to the Noldor at a time (the Second Age) when that was plausible. The only way I could believe it in Gondolin is if he gives Maeglin some "advice", but by the time Sauron has a chance, Maeglin has been tortured (or threatened with torture) into betraying Gondolin and not only giving away the details of its defense, but agreeing to undermine the defense. "Here are some secret weapons to help you defend the city you have just promised/have been Spell of Bottomless Dread-ed into helping destroy" is contradictory.

For this idea to make sense, Sauron would have to convince Maeglin that he's not really a traitor if he does such and such... but then he's not going to undermine the defense.

As for Sauron knowing the location and hiding it from Morgoth... Hurin accidentally let that secret out first thing after Morgoth "released" him. Otherwise, nobody would have been able to find and capture Maeglin. (For those who don't have The War of the Jewels, HoME vol. 11, there's a long section called "The Wanderings of Hurin" that was left out of the 1977 Silm for stylistic reasons, since it's almost a novella in detail. Poor Hurin completely lost his sanity, and one of the first things he did was to wander over to Echoriath and yell out loud asking for Turgon to let him in. Which of course Morgoth's spies heard and reported.)

Haerangil said:
What about ecthelions helmet spike?

Would there be a chance that the spike actually has one of feanors magic gems worked in? Not a silmaril of course, but another blessed stone with which he pierces the demons hard heart?
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It was diamond-tipped, in the Later Tale of Tuor (written 1951-2). Maybe the fountain was blessed by Ulmo, though.

I think swords like Glamdring are indicative of the general level of craftsmanship and "magic" that the Noldor put into their swords in the First Age, not even something specific to Gondolin. And from its name, it was blessed or "enchanted" mainly against Orcs, or against Morgoth's servants in general.
 
Faelivrin said:
I'm not comfortable with this stuff about Sauron helping the Elves of Gondolin. It was an unusual situation that led to Eregion's fall, with Sauron successfully masquerading as a messenger of the Valar to the Noldor at a time (the Second Age) when that was plausible. The only way I could believe it in Gondolin is if he gives Maeglin some "advice", but by the time Sauron has a chance, Maeglin has been tortured (or threatened with torture) into betraying Gondolin and not only giving away the details of its defense, but agreeing to undermine the defense. "Here are some secret weapons to help you defend the city you have just promised/have been Spell of Bottomless Dread-ed into helping destroy" is contradictory.

For this idea to make sense, Sauron would have to convince Maeglin that he's not really a traitor if he does such and such... but then he's not going to undermine the defense.

As for Sauron knowing the location and hiding it from Morgoth... Hurin accidentally let that secret out first thing after Morgoth "released" him. Otherwise, nobody would have been able to find and capture Maeglin. (For those who don't have The War of the Jewels, HoME vol. 11, there's a long section called "The Wanderings of Hurin" that was left out of the 1977 Silm for stylistic reasons, since it's almost a novella in detail. Poor Hurin completely lost his sanity, and one of the first things he did was to wander over to Echoriath and yell out loud asking for Turgon to let him in. Which of course Morgoth's spies heard and reported.)

It was diamond-tipped, in the Later Tale of Tuor (written 1951-2). Maybe the fountain was blessed by Ulmo, though.

I think swords like Glamdring are indicative of the general level of craftsmanship and "magic" that the Noldor put into their swords in the First Age, not even something specific to Gondolin. And from its name, it was blessed or "enchanted" mainly against Orcs, or against Morgoth's servants in general.
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Ok, so a bit of background on this idea. I came up with it while trying to determine the endgame for the Sauron/Gothmog rivalry. Setting up that subplot and leaving it hanging is poor storytelling.

My thought was that Sauron gives Maeglin this information on the pretense that it will help him avoid suspicion following his capture. Melkor has just milked Maeglin for information, and Maeglin expresses concern to Sauron (whose task it is to release him) that Turgon will suspect him after his disappearance. Sauron allays his fears by giving him the Balrogs' weakness.
 
Nicholas: Yeah, that would make sense.

So what is your interpretation about Maeglin's treachery? Did he uphold his end of the bargain during the sack of Gondolin willingly, or only because Morgoth had put a spell of fear on him?
 
Faelivrin said:
So what is your interpretation about Maeglin's treachery? Did he uphold his end of the bargain during the sack of Gondolin willingly, or only because Morgoth had put a spell of fear on him?
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I feel quite strongly (right now, am open to being convinced otherwise) that he needs to be willing. Fear, yes, while he's in Morgoth's power might make him swear, but temptation and desire has to drive him forward afterwards, or we'll have a lot of viewers (especially if we cast a handsome actor for Maeglin) saying that he wasn't really a bad guy, it wasn't really his fault, etc. It's not that Maeglin doesn't have motivation: he's wanted to rule Gondolin before he even saw it, and he desires Idril and despises Tuor. Either of those two could make him turn traitor, much less both. I'm not even sure I want Morgoth et. al. to torture him: the Hurin story strongly suggests Morgoth can read minds, at least somewhat, and he could extract Maeglin's cooperation through promising satisfaction of his dark, secret longings.

I do think we could show him being double-crossed during the sack by the forces of Morgoth: he might have assumed, or thought he had been told, that Morgoth would take the city's surrender, execute Turgon and Tuor and probably Earendil, and put him in place as a puppet king with Idril at his side. His pursuit of Idril and Earendil could be the rash act of desperation to secure at least part of what he thought he was owed/promised.
 
I also think he should be corrupted by his inner rage, unanswered love and ambition. Not just fear and magic, but of course also that.

Maeglin is our prime example of how a fallen elf falls. Sauron/ morgoth should use all their art to find out maeglins secret desires, manipulate and turn him over. And maeglin should do so willingly. Not at first maybe, but after some time as hes drawn more and more into sauron/ melkors thinking
 
I agree. While I don't think Maeglin was leaping at the chance to betray Gondolin -- he probably has genuine affection for Turgon and the people, as well as the place itself -- he gives in by a combination of fear and longing. My worry of the "spell of fear" angle is that it would too much absolve Maeglin of his actions. His actions are very nearly on par with the various Kinslayings, and need to remain so.

Rather, I would look to Saruman for an archetype here.

This then is one choice before you, before us. We may join with that Power. It would be wise, Gandalf.... Its victory is at hand; and there will be rich reward for those that aided it. As the Power grows, its proved friends will also grow; and the Wise, such as you and I, may with patience come at last to direct its courses, to control it. We can bide our time, we can keep our thoughts in our hearts, deploring maybe evils done by the way, but approving the high and ultimate purpose: Knowledge, Rule, Order; all the things that we have so far striven in vain to accomplish, hindered rather than helped by our weak or idle friends. There need not be, there would not be, any real change in our designs, only in our means."
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Maeglin could convince himself that Morgoth's victory is inevitable (as probably seems likely after spending time in his dungeons) and that this is the best way to save the city and woman he loves. That it neatly parallels his own desires is a happy bonus. But, of course, compromising means never works in Tolkien, and we'd show his ends were truly corrupted, as well, even if he never admits that to myself.
 
I think .... Maybe maeglins views start to become unclear... He might see that a lot of the noldo Attitude is wrong , maybe in some way totalitarian...

In the other hand not everything on the angband side is plainly evil. Orcs are intelligent beings too. Sauron does have his progressive ideas and ideals... Maeglins point of view might start to blurr...
 
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Funny, i was thinking about that too.. I- phone aurocorrect is playing tricks to me, and some of them are getting.. Weird!
 
maybe one of the things that makes Balrogs so dangerous could be the extent that they surround themselves with fire and shadow, similar to the way that the white walkers in GoT are sometimes accompanied and concealed by blinding snowstorms - like walking infernos, or clouds of black fog, but swift as the wind, capable of sweeping through and enveloping enemies. while they could fight exposed, I like to imagine that they could conjure these storms at will, or even become the storm itself... they'd make incredibly effective cavalry if they had those kinds of abilities.

to even be able to fight something like this would require getting past the fire and the unlight (which in addition to devouring light could possibly be a poisonous miasma, or at the very least have a demoralizing effect, or even crippling terror or despair). without some kind of magical protection, not to flee would be suicide

I dunno if that's supported anywhere, but it would be cool anyway - not to mention the ability to shape fire or shadow into weapons, and who knows what else
 
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