Balrogs

So, a few notes on SilmFilm balrogs thus far:

The balrogs start out as angelic, winged Maiar. It has been established that the Valar can change their size, but shrink down to about 10 feet when dealing with the Children. The Maiar should be about 20% smaller.

The pillars on which the Lamps are placed are made of stone with steel supports. It is this steel that the proto-balrogs melt to bring down the lamps. The collapse of the lamps, however, drowns the balrogs in liquid fire. When the survivors emerge, they are monstrous, wingless, and elemental.

It has been decided that they start out numbering two dozen or so.
 
Ok. So we have two dozen, not seven.

I still see the balrogs as monstrous and demonic, i just have a different view of what demonic does mean. By demonic i do not necessarily mean somwthing like gargoyles on churches. I even think a more human like appearance makes balrogs look more terrible and frigjtening than some monster with horns and wings, which is less relateable and more abstract and fantastic.
 
I have been trying to argue since the dawn of time - oh well, maybe since this question first came up - that it is primarily the fire from within the balrogs that transform them and deforms them, blackens them. This is way more interesting than just an external factor doing it. Yes, the fire and the heat of the melting steel does its job, just like the heat of the liquid light that pours out of the broken lamps, and this should damage them - but they are fire sprints after all and so why would fire damage them? No, it should be their own hate that burns so bright and with such heat that they cannot contain their angelic forms. This is much more powerful. I wrote the outline for this episode but I'm not sure how clear I was about this in that text, I will have to check.
(If you go back and listen to the first session in which this was discussed, Corey says that I wrote that it should be external causes behind the transformation, but that was a misunderstanding, I definitely meant the opposite)

This affects the way they look. They are partly damaged creatures, with useless, burnt shadows of wings, but more than that they are creatures of power, burning with a fire from within.
 
I have been trying to argue since the dawn of time - oh well, maybe since this question first came up - that it is primarily the fire from within the balrogs that transform them and deforms them, blackens them. This is way more interesting than just an external factor doing it. Yes, the fire and the heat of the melting steel does its job, just like the heat of the liquid light that pours out of the broken lamps, and this should damage them - but they are fire sprints after all and so why would fire damage them? No, it should be their own hate that burns so bright and with such heat that they cannot contain their angelic forms. This is much more powerful. I wrote the outline for this episode but I'm not sure how clear I was about this in that text, I will have to check.
(If you go back and listen to the first session in which this was discussed, Corey says that I wrote that it should be external causes behind the transformation, but that was a misunderstanding, I definitely meant the opposite)

This affects the way they look. They are partly damaged creatures, with useless, burnt shadows of wings, but more than that they are creatures of power, burning with a fire from within.


It could, of course, be a combination affect, where the liquid fire activates their internal flame in a way that changes them.
 
Well yes but it all starts with fanaticism and a fire from within that drives them to attack. The disfiguring transformation should be a result of a moral fall, not an accident.
 
it was mainly the picture of a skeletal elemental that struck me...

I loved PJ's version myself, there's nothing specific about it that I would change. they had a perfect blend of physical, elemental and demonic attributes

That's what I'm saying. I'm generally going to be in the camp of "if it ain't broke," and there was nothing broke about Durin's Bane. Just looking at that fanart I shared, I love the whole demonic jack-o-lantern thing they've got going on.

but in the interest of original adaption, I would be tempted to play up their ability to shapeshift, as Maiar/fallen Ainur...

I would never object to shape shifting, since PJ's forms would be expensive as hell to always maintain. But at the very least I would treat PJ's forms as their battle modes. Even if they just look like corpses some of the time, there would always be that elemental hint just below the surface. Dim embers beneath the desiccated charcoal, ready at any moment to ignite. Flames leaping through cracked flesh and blazing into hollow eyes, every crackling step leaving a seared crater in the ground.

What I want to avoid is making it like Supernatural, where every monster and demon is basically just a human.

I really think horns and such things are very cheesy.. i`d like to avoid that.

Hmm you say cheesy, but I say classic ;)
 
That's what I'm saying. I'm generally going to be in the camp of "if it ain't broke," and there was nothing broke about Durin's Bane. Just looking at that fanart I shared, I love the whole demonic jack-o-lantern thing they've got going on.



I would never object to shape shifting, since PJ's forms would be expensive as hell to always maintain. But at the very least I would treat PJ's forms as their battle modes. Even if they just look like corpses some of the time, there would always be that elemental hint just below the surface. Dim embers beneath the desiccated charcoal, ready at any moment to ignite. Flames leaping through cracked flesh and blazing into hollow eyes, every crackling step leaving a seared crater in the ground.

What I want to avoid is making it like Supernatural, where every monster and demon is basically just a human.



Hmm you say cheesy, but I say classic ;)


There is at least one broken thing about PJ's balrogs. Its wingedness.
 
Well yes but it all starts with fanaticism and a fire from within that drives them to attack. The disfiguring transformation should be a result of a moral fall, not an accident.

Considering the accident is a direct result of their moral fall, I'm not really seeing a disconnect there
 
Considering the accident is a direct result of their moral fall, I'm not really seeing a disconnect there
The significant difference is that they are spirits of fire, and physical fire damaging them as a primary cause of their transformation is less satisfactory than their own fire blazing with hate being the primary cause. They should turn into balrogs before the Lamps fall, or during the attack.
 
The significant difference is that they are spirits of fire, and physical fire damaging them as a primary cause of their transformation is less satisfactory than their own fire blazing with hate being the primary cause. They should turn into balrogs before the Lamps fall, or during the attack.


Their elemental forms being the result of their own actions rather than some sort of cosmic justice seems to make more sense to me, though.
 
That's what I'm saying. They transform because of their hatred, not because they are damaged by consequences.

I don't know. I'd rather see it as a combination of both. Also, the reveal feels stronger coming after the destruction of the lamps. And doing it during would be an additional thing taking place during both the reaction scenes at Almaren and the conflict between Arien and Gothmog.
 
I don't know. I'd rather see it as a combination of both. Also, the reveal feels stronger coming after the destruction of the lamps. And doing it during would be an additional thing taking place during both the reaction scenes at Almaren and the conflict between Arien and Gothmog.
I agree completely that it should be a combination, but the beginning of the transformation should come from within them. If it's about a reveal timing, I think there's a way to accomplish that. Their fanatic attack makes them blaze with fire, which burns away their angelic forms but in a way that shows just hot fire - then, as the Lamps fall, we see their wings burning and they are pulled down or fall under the masses of stone and melting steel etc., and then the shadowy/fiery forms emerge from the lava pools. I'm not sure but now that I think of it, I think I wrote it something like that in the episode outline. Then we get the loss of their angelic form as a first spiritual fall, and then the damaged form.
 
Well of course you are right, winged and horned Demons are pretty classic!

But on the other hand... when we meet Tolkien's Balrog in Moria the first time, there#s little classical church-art 15th century Bookpritink illustration Demon about it. It is more like an Eldjötunn from the Elder Edda...

And while there's little textual evidence, if any at all, that Balrogs have Wings and horns... I think Tolkien had his reasons to depart from the usual demon-cliché, just as he departed from the older Elf- and Fairy clichés.
 
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The significant difference is that they are spirits of fire, and physical fire damaging them as a primary cause of their transformation is less satisfactory than their own fire blazing with hate being the primary cause. They should turn into balrogs before the Lamps fall, or during the attack.

I was concerned that with the Lamps being consecrated, the fire that poured out would be holy fire, or rather holy light, like that of the Silmarils themselves, which might generate great heat, but like the burning bush of Moses, would never burn up on its own - the Lamps were intended to shine for ages, after all. regardless of any existing affinity with fire, I would expect this to cause problems for servants of Melkor - to obliterate their bodies, at least, the way Beren's own hand was withered and dissolved by a Silmaril...

but there could be an interesting way to rationalize all of this. if Melkor himself assisted in the construction of the pillars, it could be that he was still considered one of the Valar, and that despite his evil, the consecration of the Lamps might not have affected him, or those of his servants, or the creatures of Arda in general, who were immortal... he was able to avoid detection in Valinor, after all. if, like Melkor, the Balrogs were not already cursed at this stage (if their existence was unknown, for instance), then and only then does it seem feasible that they could survive destruction by holy fire, to whatever extent they might survive destruction by fire in general (bearing in mind that Sauron's own body was destroyed in the drowning of Numenor... and yet his spirit survived, as theirs could also have done). their relation to Arien is interesting in this respect (in her capacity to withstand the heat of the Sun), and I wonder if the Lamps being mythical might hint at a connection to the conflagration caused by Melkor's assault on her... but despite initially thinking that the divine light of the Lamps and the dark fire of the Balrogs could not possibly be one and the same (imagining that their fire was their very life-force, and that they were evil before ever entering Arda, or possibly from their very conception), it could just as easily be a curse in itself, a form of everlasting torment - was this the idea? everything from the shadow of wings once possessed, to the ceaseless burning of their bodies could indeed be the effect of exposure to consecrated light, for a being that is evil, yet still immune to death...

but it raises the question of what exactly is it that hallowed light reacts to, if not the corruption of Melkor? and who would be more sensitive to it than Melkor, and the servants of Melkor? while it matters, maybe, how the casters of such a spell perceive their enemy at the time of casting, the purpose of hallowing the light is obviously to protect it from anyone who would try to attack it, regardless of who they are... but it could be that they mistook the nature of Melkor's corruption of Arda early on, and this attempt at defense was akin to treating the symptoms rather than the cause.

I was wondering myself if the light of the Lamps affected all creatures equally (when spilled) - if some might not be considered holy, perhaps in connection with various Maiar/Ainur... the Balrogs would seem to fall into that category.

it's hard to say how far back Melkor's deception goes, whether to the beginning of Arda, or much further still... but I like the idea that the Balrogs are fallen Ainur, and I imagine their fixation with chaos would be reflected to some extent in their physical forms as far back as their conversion, or their creation. if it's not until after the Lamps that they take on a more bestial aspect, maybe this could be seen previously in crests, or the design of their weapons and armor... perhaps the corrupting influence of Melkor could be seen over time, as their designs tend more and more toward decadence and morbidity.

the notion that Balrogs could have been previously angelic is fascinating, regardless of how far back that past may stretch. I love that their shadow wings/cloaks might be a kind of vestige of wings once possessed, although if they were the creations or offspring of Melkor, wings of darkness (and hearts of fire) might be symbolic also, of their vain ambition to rise to heaven and finally seize the light, enveloping it with darkness, even as the divine light within them has been captured, stifled, and corrupted... that their shapes (and that of their "wings") might be inventions, in other words, which reflect the designs and obsessions of Morgoth.

the note about there being seven makes for a tempting comparison to the seven princes of hell... but I think any number could be justified, if the term "balrog" only refers to a magically potent leader of the demon kind (I'm sure the number 24 has an interesting rationale). this interpretation could justify the earlier accounts of there being hundreds or a thousand Balrogs or more - an entire race - if only that sense of the word is assumed by something like Umaiar. these would be less fearsome, but still very frightening enemies compared to orcs, who can be frightening in their own right...

a proper Balrog could be an arch-demon, basically, as opposed to a "regular" one - if that interests.


as for the construction of the pillars, does ice still play a role? that the pillars formed seas in their collapse potentially implies it still, but I imagine the explicit reference was removed due to the apparent foolishness in allowing the pillars to be built from a material that could potentially melt - although perhaps the Valar were not as yet fully aware of the properties of ice, doubtful as that seems. maybe they were aware, but were assured that it would not melt on its own? yet this could have been achieved by heat transfer through steel cores, which would have been an even more novel material than ice, surely... what do we know about the attack? or was there one after all? I favor the idea of some kind of built-in sabotage, even if a hidden property of matter seems hard for a Vala to overlook, but steel seems like a more likely candidate than ice for this, because it can only be produced artificially. might even tie in with faeries' abhorrence of iron, although one could attribute this to practically anything.

the possibility of everything prior to Sun and Moon being mythical (more so even than Third Age events, which despite the style of the narrative sometimes strike me as still not being fully literal yet) has me deeply intrigued, though... is anyone else considering what that could mean, if it were true? or what Elrond would make of it? as there is more to the Valar than they are able or willing to share with Elves, might there be more to Elves than they are able or willing to share with mortals?

I'm particularly intrigued by any possibility that the Lamps have some magical or symbolic significance beyond the simple provision of light... any connection to Melkor, Balrogs, Sauron or Numenor could be telling, somehow.
 
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how did the spirit of Sauron come to manifest as a great flaming eye, for that matter? could his nature have been similar to that of the Balrogs at that point? and if so, what might have kept them bound to Arda, as Sauron was bound by the Ring? assuming they are some kind of wraith, that is
 
...could it be that the effect of being drowned in holy fire, is that their immortality now depends on staying lit? the only Balrog death I remember being described in any detail, this fire was seemingly extinguished before the killing blow was struck - could this be what makes them so hard to kill? you have to find a way to put them out first?
 
I'm not sure about the holy fire thing. The Lamps are not burning I think in the common sense, but their light is collected from around Arda and concentrated in the Lamp globes.
 
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