Beren's equipment

Odola said:
Because if he had entered Doriath armed, Luthien would be traitor to her nation for not having reported him straigth away.
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That is shaky ground at best. Bregor's bow would still trigger that state, and honestly, she would have had to report his presence armed or not.

The main thing is that the loss of the sword demonstrates the *cost* of the trip through Nan Dungortheb.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
That is shaky ground at best. Bregor's bow would still trigger that state, and honestly, she would have had to report his presence armed or not.

The main thing is that the loss of the sword demonstrates the *cost* of the trip through Nan Dungortheb.
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An armed border violation is another matter than one as an unarmed refugee. And the Bow of Bregor is unstrung at Beren's entry. So it does not count as an active weapon.
 
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To be clear, humans are forbidden from entering Doriath. Noldor who are not related to Finarfin are forbidden from entering Doriath. Sindar are welcome, and Dwarves have been invited in, but the Girdle is pretty strict, and Beren is clearly in violation of the laws of Doriath for being there.

One could make an argument that he is a refugee and should be granted special status, but that is an argument that would need to be made to the king to change the current policy, not an existing loophole or exception. So far, no exceptions have been granted, even when refugees were actively fleeing battlefields in the Dagor Bragollach.

So at the end of the day, it is Lúthien's judgement call coupled with the decision of the Girdle itself to allow him through that makes the exception for Beren, not his (mostly) unarmed status. The fact that he is passed out when she first sees him certainly makes him as non-threatening as possible in that moment.
 
Odola said:
An armed border violation is another matter than one as an unarmed refugee. And the Bow of Bregor is unstrung at Beren's entry. So it does not count as an active weapon.
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That might all be true of any kingdom other than Doriath, where *no one* is supposed to be able to enter without Thingol's consent. That's not a good reason for us to not allow Beren's sword to accompany him.
 
MithLuin said:
So at the end of the day, it is Lúthien's judgement call coupled with the decision of the Girdle itself to allow him through that makes the exception for Beren, not his (mostly) unarmed status. The fact that he is passed out when she first sees him certainly makes him as non-threatening as possible in that moment.
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I am not talking about violating a law of her father's. What Luthien is doing is clearly illegal. But I am talking about commiting treason towards her nation. Then is a wholly another degree. And letting an armed invader in the country unrestrained is clearly treason, not just an order violation.

E.g. we have here now a high fence build at our border with Belarus. But local people are still finding some refugees from Syria and other Middle-Eastern countries in their fields. If they take one in to tend to him/her, they can get in trouble for not reporting him/her to the border guards stright away. But this is nothing in comparison to what would happen if they had been found out hiding an armed Russian soldier in their shed. Another matter altogether.
 
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One could easily argue that allowing a human into Doriath, in clear violation of the king's blanket ban, is also treason. Beren is not supposed to be there.

But he is.

So we are telling that story.

I am fine with Beren losing his sword in Nan Dungortheb because it shows the cost of his trek through Nan Dungortheb and how he is leaving behind his life as an outlaw of Dorthonion when he enters Doriath. So, we do not intend for him to be armed with a sword (just the bow) when he enters Doriath.
 
MithLuin said:
One could easily argue that allowing a human into Doriath, in clear violation of the king's blanket ban, is also treason.
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She has not"allowed him in" - that was the Girdle doing. She just did not make sure that he leaves as soonas she has known of his presence.

Still we see that she has not commited treason because she is put under house-arrest only. She is not stripped from all her royal privileges and exiled permanently from the realm - as a traitor would be. And this would be what should have happened if Beren were an armed intruder - princess or no princess. As such the way she is treated afterwards shows that Beren could not have been armed at the time that she has found him.

So Ange1e4e5 in having Beren not being armed we prevent ourselves from having to face questions from the more inquisitive part of our audience about why Luthien is not being tried for treason in our story. 😉
 
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Odola said:
She has not"allowed him in" - that was the Girdle doing. She just did not make sure that he leaves as soonas she has known of his presence.

Still we see that she has not commited treason because she is put under house-arrest only. She is not stripped from all her royal privileges and exiled permanently from the realm - as a traitor would be. And this would be what should have happened if Beren were an armed intruder - princess or no princess. As such the way she is treated afterwards shows that Beren could not have been armed at the time that she has found him.

So Ange1e4e5 in having Beren not being armed we prevent ourselves from having to face questions from the more inquisitive part of our audience about why Luthien is not being tried for treason in our story. 😉
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Truly clever audience members will perhaps realize that there has been no on-screen discussion of what would happen if Luthien allowed an armed person to run around in Doriath unimpeded and unheralded, and not make assumptions about what they feel those should be. 😉
 
MithLuin said:
One could easily argue that allowing a human into Doriath, in clear violation of the king's blanket ban, is also treason. Beren is not supposed to be there.

But he is.

So we are telling that story.

I am fine with Beren losing his sword in Nan Dungortheb because it shows the cost of his trek through Nan Dungortheb and how he is leaving behind his life as an outlaw of Dorthonion when he enters Doriath. So, we do not intend for him to be armed with a sword (just the bow) when he enters Doriath.
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My thought would have been to have Dagmor be a one-handed sword that accompanies Beren throughout his exploits and he'd be able to use later in life. On the other hand he's still an outlaw in Doriath no matter if he has a sword and given he has the bow still an armed intruder.

Anyways if he loses Dagmor, who's going to know he had it? No one would ever know.
 
Odola said:
I am not talking about violating a law of her father's. What Luthien is doing is clearly illegal. But I am talking about commiting treason towards her nation. Then is a wholly another degree. And letting an armed invader in the country unrestrained is clearly treason, not just an order violation.
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The Girdle clearly allowed Beren in though, and how much control does Thingol have over it? Even Melian knew the Girdle would be breached one day.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
My thought would have been to have Dagmor be a one-handed sword that accompanies Beren throughout his exploits and he'd be able to use later in life. On the other hand he's still an outlaw in Doriath no matter if he has a sword and given he has the bow still an armed intruder.

Anyways if he loses Dagmor, who's going to know he had it? No one would ever know.
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Well, Beren would know. Much of the story we get must needs have come to us through him. But also, the refugees from Ladros will have known him and his named sword from before the Dagor Bragollach. His mother certainly would, and many others. He was the chieftain's son after all.
 
Beren has Dagmor at the time of the Dagor Bragollach and throughout his years as an outlaw in Dorthonion. We have communication between the outlaws of Dorthonion and the refugees in Brethil, for at least a time. I wouldn't say that 'no one knows' about his sword if it is left in Nan Dungortheb.

I understand that you were hoping he would keep his sword throughout the story. The reality is that this sword is not named in the published Silmarillion, nor in Aragon's song about Beren and Lúthien in LotR. So, while it is something associated with Beren, it didn't seem to be central to the story. We know that certain artifacts belonging to Beren need to survive until Númenor (Bregor's bow) and the Third Age (Ring of Barahir). Those are the items we placed more emphasis on and have given a prominent place in the story- though he is divested of both in Tol Sirion. The sword Dagmor became a casualty of his journey through Nan Dungortheb, as that episode was primarily about loss and grief.
 
MithLuin said:
Beren has Dagmor at the time of the Dagor Bragollach and throughout his years as an outlaw in Dorthonion. We have communication between the outlaws of Dorthonion and the refugees in Brethil, for at least a time. I wouldn't say that 'no one knows' about his sword if it is left in Nan Dungortheb.

I understand that you were hoping he would keep his sword throughout the story. The reality is that this sword is not named in the published Silmarillion, nor in Aragon's song about Beren and Lúthien in LotR. So, while it is something associated with Beren, it didn't seem to be central to the story. We know that certain artifacts belonging to Beren need to survive until Númenor (Bregor's bow) and the Third Age (Ring of Barahir). Those are the items we placed more emphasis on and have given a prominent place in the story- though he is divested of both in Tol Sirion. The sword Dagmor became a casualty of his journey through Nan Dungortheb, as that episode was primarily about loss and grief.
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But it does show up in the Lays of Beleriand, meaning it made its way into some material for poetry, and I don't intend for him to be fighting Dwarves with an antler like Frey at Ragnarok. Plus why else would Beren be shown with a sword in artwork like Alan Lee's that features on the cover of books if he wasn't meant to have it throughout his exploits (the presence of Luthien and Huan seems to indicate he had it as late as Huan abandoning Celegorm)?
 
Giving Beren a sword for the part of the story where he turns into a wolf is problematic. Where does the sword go while he's wearing the wolfhame? It just...vanishes? And then....returns when he takes it off? It's all magic, so, whatever, maybe your sword just goes off somewhere when you transform into a wolf. But visually it might look rather odd to show that transformation while he's got a sword on his belt.

For that part of the story, he has Angrist, an item that can be tucked neatly away more easily.

No one is suggesting he fights the dwarves with an antler. He can have a weapon typical of the Green Elves, or a sword from the armory in Doriath. But whatever it is, it has to work for a one-handed warrior.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
But it does show up in the Lays of Beleriand, meaning it made its way into some material for poetry, and I don't intend for him to be fighting Dwarves with an antler like Frey at Ragnarok. Plus why else would Beren be shown with a sword in artwork like Alan Lee's that features on the cover of books if he wasn't meant to have it throughout his exploits (the presence of Luthien and Huan seems to indicate he had it as late as Huan abandoning Celegorm)?
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So, there are a few things I need to address here:

1. Lee is adapting the story in art just as we are. We are under no obligation to make the same adaptation choices he made.

2. That he has a sword in that painting does not make that sword the named one he was carrying in Dorthonion. It could have been any sword.

3. On a similar note: Beren losing his sword in Nan Dungortheb does not mean he can never own, wear, or use a sword again. There are plenty of swords to choose from.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
So, there are a few things I need to address here:

1. Lee is adapting the story in art just as we are. We are under no obligation to make the same adaptation choices he made.

2. That he has a sword in that painting does not make that sword the named one he was carrying in Dorthonion. It could have been any sword.

3. On a similar note: Beren losing his sword in Nan Dungortheb does not mean he can never own, wear, or use a sword again. There are plenty of swords to choose from.
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There isn't a sword mentioned in any point after that in the text. Anyways I would think it foolish for Beren to be traveling from Doriath unarmed in wild country (unless Lúthien is his proverbial sword given he's helpless without her), would likely need a sidearm in close combat since the bow isn't much use as a melee weapon (unless you're Legolas stabbing with an arrow), and improbable that Thingol would just give him, an Edain who he thinks is lower than the dirt on his boots, a sword from the armory to use given Thingol wants him to fail. So that leaves him with a sword he brought.
 
If there is no sword mentioned in the text, why is it essential that Beren have one with him at all times?

Beren is armed when he departs Doriath - with the Bow of Bregor. Just because Thingol is unlikely to offer Beren a sword when he's being escorted out of Doriath doesn't mean that Beren can't obtain a sword in Nargothrond - which he will then lose with all the rest of his gear while in captivity in Tol Sirion.

Beren doesn't seem to be armed with a sword during the confrontation with Celegorm and Curufin. His leap and subsequent strangling suggest he was likely unarmed at the time. What's more, he takes Curufin's knife. That is the weapon he uses in Angband, going back to the earliest version of the Tale of Tinuviel where he's armed with a kitchen knife from Tevildo's kitchens.

The text of the Lay tells us that Beren had a sword named Dagmor. We have given him that sword during his time in Dorthonion (for 5 episodes of the show).
 
MithLuin said:
If there is no sword mentioned in the text, why is it essential that Beren have one with him at all times?

Beren is armed when he departs Doriath - with the Bow of Bregor. Just because Thingol is unlikely to offer Beren a sword when he's being escorted out of Doriath doesn't mean that Beren can't obtain a sword in Nargothrond - which he will then lose with all the rest of his gear while in captivity in Tol Sirion.

Beren doesn't seem to be armed with a sword during the confrontation with Celegorm and Curufin. His leap and subsequent strangling suggest he was likely unarmed at the time. What's more, he takes Curufin's knife. That is the weapon he uses in Angband, going back to the earliest version of the Tale of Tinuviel where he's armed with a kitchen knife from Tevildo's kitchens.

The text of the Lay tells us that Beren had a sword named Dagmor. We have given him that sword during his time in Dorthonion (for 5 episodes of the show).
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Beren would be a fool to not have a closer-range sidearm for the reasons I mentioned. He wouldn't have to lose the gear while in captivity since a couple things survive the tower's collapse (like wolf and bat hames, the bow, and a Ring).

MithLuin said:
Giving Beren a sword for the part of the story where he turns into a wolf is problematic. Where does the sword go while he's wearing the wolfhame? It just...vanishes? And then....returns when he takes it off? It's all magic, so, whatever, maybe your sword just goes off somewhere when you transform into a wolf. But visually it might look rather odd to show that transformation while he's got a sword on his belt.

For that part of the story, he has Angrist, an item that can be tucked neatly away more easily.

No one is suggesting he fights the dwarves with an antler. He can have a weapon typical of the Green Elves, or a sword from the armory in Doriath. But whatever it is, it has to work for a one-handed warrior.
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As far as what the Green Elves wield, they would probably wield bows and arrows and spears, neither of which would be practical for a one-handed man... unless we want Beren to invent the crossbow.
 
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