Beren's equipment

We are straying far afield from Beren's kit.
Thought so too at first but actually not so very far from Beren himself - after some thinking about it:

Beren is about to start a semi-divine sacred bloodline himself - which will marry - maybe not very close but still - kin to keep the bloodline "pure". It is an ancient universal human idea for which we have traces starting with the Neolithic actually.

B&L is not a love story - it is a dynastic origin story at its very core - legitimizing a "divine right to rule".

I recognize that the atlatl was very useful for a variety of neolithic cultures.

Not really Neolithic. In Europe it was used long before, in other parts of the world it is in use still untill today. The Aztecs were not Neolithic nor are the Inuits or Aborigines. E.g. in Europe the "bow and arrow" is actually a Neolithic weapon. And the sword is a Bronze Age one. If one counts their historic appearance.

The issue is more that it is a weapon suitable for wooded areas in cases were bow and arrow are to weak to make a mark. And against spiders where also you would need something stronger than a mere arrow.

So fully armoured orcs. Then what can Beren and his band use? Firearms? Some technically advanced crossbows?
Neither sword nor even javelins will do much against full plate. (Atlatls do well against chainmail. And they do pierce metal plates too - here e.g. a car hood:

"
"One Spaniard was wounded by a weapon that the Castilians in the Indies call a tiradera (javelin), which we shall call more accurately a bohordo because it is shot with a stock (amiento) of wood or a cord. The Spaniards had not seen this weapon in all the places they had visited in Florida until that day. In Peru the Indians use it a great deal. It is a weapon a fathom long made of a firm rush, though spongy in the center, of which they also make arrows. They make heads for them of deer horn, fashioned in all perfection with four points or harpoons of palm or other wood that they have, as strong and heavy as iron. So that the part of the arrow or dart made of the rush will not be split by the barb when it hits its mark, they make a knot where the head or harpoon joins it and another one at the other end, which the cross-bowmen call batalla on their darts, where it receives the cord of the bow or the stock with which they shoot it. The stock is of wood two tercias long, and they shoot the dart with it with extreme force, so that it has been known to pass through a man armed with a coat of mail. The Spaniards in Peru feared this weapon more than any other the Indians had, for their arrows are not so terrible as those in Florida.

"The dart or arrow with which they wounded our Spaniard of whom we are speaking had three barbs in the place of one, similar to the three largest fingers of the hand. The barb in the center was a-hand-breadth longer that the two on the sides, and thus it went through the thigh from one side to the other. The two side barbs were lodged in the middle of the thigh and in order to get them out it was necessary to cut away a great deal of flesh from the Spaniard's leg, because they were harpoons and not smooth points. The butchery was such that he expired before they got his wound dressed, the poor fellow not knowing whether to complain more of the enemy who had wounded him or the friends who had hastened his death."

-Garcilaso de la Vega in the de Soto expedition


From; "Historic use of the Spear-Thrower in Southeastern North America", John R. Swanton, American Antiquity, Vol. 3, No. 4 (Apr., 1938), pp. 356-358. )

The reason I would like them in our story:

- they are very expressive and visually dynamic - convey brute force (and a basic understanding of physics + the core human ability to compensate for "innate weakness" by the strategic use of technology) and anger imho - but not yet used in movies much - so it would add some novelty to the fight sceenes for the viewers. Something they have not seen much as yet.
They are also used one handed, leaving the other hand free e.g. to hold a sword.

- it would be something not elf- or dwarf-derived - something distinctlty human. Elves have no need for it, they have streght enough in their own hands, dwarves fight more at very close range.

But if orcs are full plated then the best thing would be to drive the them into deep water and let them drown actually.

Still orcs running around in full plate in a forest - a bit cumbersome - even if orcs are much stronger than men.

Also, keep in mind that in Silm Film, Ungoliant never came to Nan Dungortheb, but created her descendants in the barren mountains to the north of the Ered Luin.

Oh, really? That changes what the place is significantly. In the texts it is more "hell" than even Angband due to Ungoliant personally covering the place in her very own spinning. If she did not, then it can be a "Mirkwood', and not "hell" itself.

But that reduces Beren's deed a lot imho as a "Mirkwood" can be crossed - even by a band of silly dwarves and a hobbit - as we do know. Nan Dungortheb was only ever crossed by Beren himself in the original texts.

So this is no longer extraordinary in our story. I am no longer really sure what Beren's crossing it will give to our story then. - It does no longer establish him as a great hero.

Somehow our story seems to reduce him to a lover only? We keep reducing his greatness, personally gained fame and achievements.
He becomes the clueless next door guy, a "younker in distress" really.

What does he personally achieve? Only killing Gorgol and Beren's Leap remain. He even breaks his knive getting the Silmarils out and he is maimed and then killed by the wolf. Not a capable warrior.

But this makes our story very "modern": a capable female liking a far less capable guy. Quite a role reversal. The audience might think we are going "woke" on a Tolkien story - which might actually enrage it quite a lot nowadays - as we do know. :D Are we going to risk it? ;)

{Still better to make the Gorgol fight really spectacular if it is the only one Beren's really does and wins on his own in our story.]
 
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But still stories connected to "semi-divine inhabitants of the ancient tombs" correspond to an extend to kinship structures of the society buried there - as revealed by the DNA studies of their remains. Kinship patterns that were long gone - in cases for millenia already - when those stories about them have been written down. Those "semi-divine" kings of legend reportedly buried there - who were marrying their very close kin to keep the bloodlines "pure" - seem to be exactly that - "semi-divine" kings. Their names might have been invented later, but their actual social role seems very much true.
It's just how ancient societies worked.It's like the old testament, which btw. Heavily influenced irish myth. The celts would't have known, but they guessed sometimes correctly. And we know little about these prehistoric societies, in fact many popular interpretations of ancient dna seem to be biased by people who kow these same exact myths!
 
It's just how ancient societies worked.It's like the old testament, which btw. Heavily influenced irish myth. The celts would't have known, but they guessed sometimes correctly. And we know little about these prehistoric societies, in fact many popular interpretations of ancient dna seem to be biased by people who kow these same exact myths!

Of course it is like the OT. The OT has some very old elements in it. It starts with gatherers turned hunters, then has the pastoralist-early farmers conflict just following it. Abraham married his half-sister also, just like the pharohs did. But DNA is DNA, when there is "incest", it will show it, where there is none, it will show that too.
 
Orcs do not wear full plate.They wear mail or scale-splint armor. I do not believe an atlatl thrown spear usually piercing good quality mail until i see it, yet such spears might break bones and do terrible concussion damage to both flesh and bones, but so will the amentum. About spanish soldiers vs atlatl using natives... i believe they must have been mostly very badly armored! Never compare a simple car hood to actual real armor! It does not compete even close!
 
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Orcs do not wear full plate.They wear mail or scale-splint armor. I do not believe an atlatl thrown spear piercing good quality mail until i see it, yet such spears might break bones and do terrible concussion damage to both flesh and bones, but so will the amentum. About spanish soldiers vs atlatl using natives... i believe they were must have been very badly armored!

? The Spanish were generally good armour makers.
And amentum spears are simply heavier to carry and as such limited in numbers, if you convince me how the band manages that logistically, I could run with it.
(Still you cannot carry an amantum spear above the shoulder basically "ready for shooting" while you look around. It must rest on your shoulder - which does not make it thrust-ready.)
 
Sure but who wore that armor? Not the common conquistador, only the nobles and commanders.Most com,on soldiers actually were pretty poorly equipped at the time, plus they often didnt't wear heavy armor because of the unused climate.I'd like to see what sort of mail,they wore...

I didn't say Barahirs band used heavy spears all the times, i already admitted they would switch to lighter , easily self-made projectiles pretty soon, i just added these would still have limited efficiency against fully armored orcs.Barahirs group is small... they need to plan out their guerilla attacks extremely well.Actually ... i believe they would probably use bows and traps more often than thrown spears. Heavy armor in wooded areas? Not necessarily a problem! People also can swim in heavy armor... orcs just hate normal water...too much ulmo power inside! But the orcs would have spy and tracker units which would NOT be heavily armed, those would be snagas acting like peltasts,psiloi, velites etc.
The outlaws need to get rid of these , bats and wolves at first if they wish to remain undetected...
 
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Actually ... i believe they would probably use bows and traps more often than thrown spears.

Traps, please do elaborate on that?

Bow and arrow - is more a hidden sniper aproach - killing from behind - efficient but not very noble nor brave. And very much over-explored to death in plenty of Robin Hood movies - little really exciting in that. Beyond that, best archery skills still go to the elves.
 
Traps? I believe anything from pits to nets to deadfalls , slings, spikes, boar traps, feather spear traps, swinging log traps to using large trees themselves, felling them on a group of enemies or rather prepairing them to be tipped over... like the gauls did to the romans.

I doubt such a small terrorist group fighting a by far arger force can choose to be very chivalric.They have to keep their own alive and kill as many enemies as possible... arsony and destruction of enemy supplies and storages would be a thing too.Destroy their food! Also they would use daylight as advance as orcs are stronger by night.

Bow &arrow or slings maybe... also is a matter of range, i know atlatls might expand the reach of a spear quite a lot but i guess Barahirs band has access to elven bows? At last Noldoric ones... i guess those would be far more effective on longer range.
 
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Traps? I believe anything from pits to nets to deadfalls , slings, spikes, boar traps, feather spear traps to using large trees themselves, felling them on a group of enemies or rather prepairing them to be tipped over... like the gauls did to the romans.

I doubt such a small terrorist group fighting a larger force can choose to be very chivalric.They have to keep their own alive and kill as many enemies as possible... arsony and destructionmof enemy supplies and storages would be a thing too.Destroy their food! Also they would use daylight as advance ay orcs are stronger by night.

Bow &arrow or slings kaybe... also,is a matter of range, i know atlatls might expand the reach of a spear quite a lot but imguess Barahirs band has access to elven bows? At last Noldoric ones... i guess those would be far more effective on longer range.

They are in the woods, you do not need much range but a heavy impact.

About traps - we need one or two ingenoius visually attractive traps settings - we do not have time for much but we need to convey to the viewer that Barahir's men are prof's with skill, imagination and humour - attributes that their enemies lack completely.
 
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Of course they need range a lot ! If they want to use the forests as effective cover they HAVE to rely on stealth and distance to their enemies!
 
They are in the woods, you do not need much range but much velocity at impact.

About traps - we need one or two ingenoius visually attractive traps settings - we do not have time for much but we need to convey to the viewer that Barahir's men are prof's with skill, imagination and humour - attributes that their enemies lack completely.
Oh one short scene with felled trees, ,a pit, a feather spike or swinging log trap should be sufficient to convince the viewer they are very good at this and do it all the time probably! And starting a fire in an enemy camp can be combined efficiently with such a scene.Not much time or storytelling necessary!
 
Of course they need range a lot ! If they want to use the forests as effective cover they HAVE to rely on stealth and distance to their enemies!

Range is naturally limited by trees aleady. You do not let it "rain down" arrows like with a longbow on a battlefield.

Oh one short scene with felled trees, , a pit a feather spike or swinging log trap should be sufficient to concince a viewer they are very good atnthis and do it all the time probably! And starting a fire in an enemy camp can be combined efficiently with such a scene.Not much time or storytelling necessary!

Seems fine, though I still cannot picture it correctly. Could you point out the steps of such a scene?
 
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Hmm... bisons are not armed opponents. Also note how close he has to get and how open the forest is...


Actually i like robinnhood.It's pretty close to Barahirs situation and a very good example.
 
Hmm... bisons are not armed opponents. Also note how close he has to get and how open the forest is...


Actually i like robinnhood.It's pretty close to Barahirs situation and a very good example.

But we had it already with Faramir in the ROTK context and archery is still a foremost elvish thing in Tolkien - no human can outdo the elves in it. So the "awesomes" of it has to be always limited for humans - like in the Legolas / Aragorn contrast in Moria in the movies.

From your movie clips the first is good, ewoks rely on numbers which we do not have and the last one a very long set up - difficult to reset again.
 
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Range is naturally limited by trees aleady. You do not let it "rain down" arrows like with a longbow on a battlefield.



Seems fine, though I still cannot picture it correctly. Could you point out the steps of such a scene?

Not necessarily.As i live is a fairly wooded area i can assure you it all depends on position, heights, knowing the terrain.There can be very free shooting lines in forested areas too, i guess you need to lure the prey/enemy towards these but keep yourself where the enemy does NOT have a good line of sight. I never believed in the rain of arrows... i believe that never happened as it seems ineffective and a waste of material to me.

I am afraid i am by no way an expert of cinema or screenplay...
I wonder if i could possibly find a graphic novel where such things are shown in a good way
 
But we had it already with Faramir in the ROTK context and archery is still a foremost elvish thing in Tolkien - no human can outdo the elves in it. So the "awesomes" of it has to be always limited for humans - like in the Legolas / Aragorn contrast in Moria in the movies.

I do not understand the issue here. That elves are far better at it does by no ways mean men never do or did it and could't be efficient in their own ways. I mean look at history... it did and does happen! And elves do not exist in our reality..
 
I do not understand the issue here. That elves are far better at it does by no ways mean men never do or did it and could't be efficient in their own ways. I mean look at history... it did and does happen! And elves do not exist in our reality..

Of course. But we want the band to be shown as expert reknowed orc fighters who do surpass even the elves in their orc fighting skills. As such it would be good to show them doing something else than what elves are known to do best - as we are also limited and have no time to elaborate the details.
 
Of course. But we want the band to be shown as expert reknowed orc fighters who do surpass even the elves even in fighting orcs skills. As such it would be good to show them doing something else then what elves are known to do best - as we are also limiter for time.

The rangers of Ithilien were not elves.They fought under quite similarly severe circumstances too, even if they were not THAT an extremely small unit.
 
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