Boromir's prophecy

Falterroy

New Member
I am sorry I am behind quite a bit. I dont know if this is covered later and I am trying to catch up, but I sat through listening to quite a bit of assumptions that the prophecy Boromir told from the dream was actually meant for Faramir.
And that it should have been Faramir who came instead of Boromir. I believe that is absolutely wrong.

firstly, Boromir is presumed stronger than Faramir. It took Boromir 110 days to get to the council, and he ONLY JUST MADE IT. He got a night sleep to refresh himself. Would Faramir really have made it in the same time or less? Maybe? But it seems an odd coincidence that if Boromir is not the one the prophecy is meant for, he just happens to make it to the counsel in exactly the time needed to get there. If he came almost any earlier, went straight there, then Elrond would have said "here is Bilbo, guess he is your halfling?"
And Faramir would have his answer and likely head home. I mean, how long would he have waited for frodo to get there or to recover without knowing how long that would take? A second elf would probably be on the fellowship.

secondly, The fellowship as a plan would have failed. If it didnt break, then what, they would have made it to the black gate, and then tried to sneak in somehow?
The fact it broke is what led to Frodo and Sam "befriending" Gollum and him showing the unique way into Mordor.

the fact is broke is why they went to Rohan. They had NO reason to go until the fellowship broke. if Faramir was with them, lets say they fight off the Uruk Hai and noone gets captured. Either they continue to die at the black gate, which would have happened if Frodo trusted Faramir and stayed with him- unlike getting his decision to leave hardened by Boromir. Or frodo still leaves, and the rest of the fellowship goes straight to Gondor as Aragorn wanted to do.

then Isengard instead of Rohan joins the siege of Minas Tirith.

clearly, the reason for the prophecy was to send Boromir up to Rivendell in order to BREAK the fellowship. Not to prevent it, since it was needed to get the ring past the mountains, but to break it at a certain point. To convince Frodo to leave on his own, and to die fighting the Uruks.

if Boromir and Faramirs roles were reversed, would Boromir say, "OH HELLO ARAGORN WHO WANTS TO TAKE COMMAND OF MINAS TIRITH FROM MY FAMILY AND WAS THE LAST MAN TO SEE MY BROTHER ALIVE! Sure I trust you. Oh and you bring the wizard. Great."
 
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If the fellowship still had frodo, would they have detoured to save Merry and Pippin? the reason Faramir got the dreams can easily be that A he is more sensitive and B to convince Boromir to go. Perhaps if the dream was just Boromirs, he would not have left. But Boromir saw Faramir leaving and in order to prevent Faramir risking his life on a perilous journey, Boromir took his place.
 
Perhaps the reason it took Boromir 110 days to get to Rivendell, which others have claimed is significantly longer than should be necessary, was so that he would arrive exactly at the correct time.

We can't know for sure, but maybe his progress through the Trollshaws was confounded by divine providence in order to have him arrive the morning of the Council.

We mainly have Boromir's assessment of their relative capabilities, so Faramir may have faired just as well as his big brother. Or Faramir's subtler judgement may have allowed him to cross the fords at Tharbad without losing his horse, thus arriving earlier.

The Fellowship breaking was definitely necessary but could have been achieved without Boromir. The attack of the Uruk-Hai is the main driver for the events that followed. If the Fellowship, confronted with the need to decide the way forward and the attack by the Uruk-Hai, had chosen to send Frodo and Sam ahead while the rest provided a rearguard, things could have potentially still played out along similar lines without losing a son of the Steward. Even one Hobbit being grabbed during the fight could have lead to the pursuit across Rohan and the arrival at Fangorn. It would have been harder to arrange, but still possible.

It's easy to look at one event and its consequences, and then allow yourself to be stovepiped regarding your analysis of any change. It is possible that swapping Boromir and Faramir may have lead to a very similar outcome, as well as vastly different outcomes, depending on your attitude towards Fate.

I concede that Faramir seems more likely to talk about his strange recurring dream to Boromir than vice versa, but then sending the dream to Boromir multiple times might have been just as effective. If so, we need to ask not just 'Why did Boromir go in what seems to be Faramir's place?', but also 'Why did Faramir get the recurring dream in what could have been Boromir's place?'.

Many question would have been cleared up if Boromir had the dream several times, followed by Faramir once. Faramir mentions the single dream to Boromir who thinks 'Ok, that recurring dream must be important and I need to follow the instructions'.

The main commentary on having Faramir at the Council instead of Boromir is that the whole thing might have gone more smoothly, and Gondor may not have lost Boromir to the war of the Ring. It could then have lead to more tension upon Aragorn's return to Gondor under his true name (rather than his stint there as Thorongil.) Then again, if Boromir was fated to die before the return of the King he might have just as well died defending Osgiliath or Cair Andros from the forces of Mordor.
 
I think we have to be careful prioritizing our knowledge. That is, we know Faramir was given the prophetic dream many times, and Boromir once. We know Boromir came on the journey, how the Council proceeds, and what ultimately happens to him and the Fellowship.

If we remove one link in that, we greatly reduced what we can know about what happens next. Even speculations going that direction are tricky.

Still, I feel pretty comfortable saying Faramir was supposed to go, because 1) He was sent the dream first, and more; 2) If Boromir is the target, there’s no reason to send Faramir the dream at all.

I also feel pretty comfortable saying that, based on what we know about Tolkien’s metaphysics, no discordant action by man (or other being) can actually thwart Providence.

So it can be simultaneously true that Boromir was not supposed to heed the summons, and yet that he played an essential role, ultimately.
 
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I’ll quickly state two items before getting to my main point: I think it’s supposed to be Faramir’s mission. I also think that “It would have been different but not better,” might apply to some of the discussion.

One thing we should watch out for are moments when Boromir influences the course of events (or is importantly silent) before the breaking of the Fellowship and consider what Faramir might have done or added. Those might be the moments when we get a hint of what might have been.

For example, what if his earlier arrival meant they got an earlier start? Would they have gotten to the Pass of Carathras soon enough that the pass would have been clear enough to manage?
 
If Faramir was 'meant' to seek for Imladris, rather than Boromir, was Bilbo 'meant' to go on the quest to Mt. Doom rather than Frodo?

Bilbo volunteers first. Although he feigns reluctance, "It is a frightful nuisance.", his, "When ought I to start?" actually sounds a lot more eager than Frodo's "overwhelming longing to rest and remain at peace by Bilbo's side in Rivendell," only speaking with an effort, and wondering, "if some other will was using his small voice."

Bilbo might have been the better choice. We know from 'The Hobbit', that he is more adventurous than Frodo (despite frequent longings for his Hobbit Hole). He is resourceful, brave, hardy, quick witted. He is the clue-finder, the web-cutter, the stinging fly. He that buries his friends alive and drowns them and draws them alive again from the water. He came from the end of a bag, but no bag went over him. He is the friend of bears and the guest of eagles. Ring winner, luck wearer, and barrel rider.

Bilbo is a lot more experienced than Frodo. Crucially, he also seems a lot more aware of, and wary of, the influence of the Ring than Frodo yet is. Plus, he has successfully given it away once already, and also successfully given away another artifact of power and desire, the Arkenstone of Thrain!

Gandalf is dead against this idea. Much like we might surmise that Denethor was dead against Faramir's ambition to seek for Imladris. Were they both right? Were they both wrong?

Anyway, when wondering whether Faramir was 'meant' to go on the quest instead of Boromir, I think it is interesting to compare and contrast with Bilbo and Frodo.

Is it just an accident that these two situations are so juxtaposed during the Council of Elrond?
 
We could continue the "what ifs" a long way down the storyline... What if Boromir doesn't meet the end that he does - if Denethor never learns of Boromir's demise? How would that effect Denethor's actions upon Gandalf's arrival? Would Faramir even be in Ithilien? How about fighting for the succession of the line of stewards and opposing the return of House Elendil? Butterfly effect, and best to not suppose.
 
And that it should have been Faramir who came instead of Boromir. I believe that is absolutely wrong.
The whole "it should have been..." thing is very fraught. I'm not sure divine beings are ever going to have one single plan for how things should go. Not with human free will in the picture! I expect something more like a near-infinite branching of possibilities, with as many as possible leading eventually to a desired end.

This is made pretty explicit in Bujold's The Curse of Chalion. As an author she has been accused of using too many coincidences in the plot development, but in this novel the characters actually discuss the problem. Their conclusion is that probably the gods set up many attempts at righting things. Most of them fail, because someone quits their quest, or some accident occurs, or the gods' chosen hero hasn't quite got the right stuff and falls. But they may have started dozens of different heroes going, and eventually one succeeds.

Cazaril concludes, near the end, that his mission was divinely ordained and that he has been on the gods' path for years and years without knowing it. He wonders how many others had been started on similar paths, since he knows how close he came, multiple times, to failure... Gods are patient. They can afford to wait. They also probably hedge their bets ;)

So "it should have been Faramir" is just shorthand for "that was plan A". But there's no reason to believe that plan A was ever the only plan.
Leaf By Niggle said:
It could have been different, but it could not have been better.
 
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