Broad-bladed axe and long white knife – #219

S

Spartanisches Spielkalb

New Member
Hi there,

Here are some random thoughts about following passage as discussed in Session #219.

Gimli the dwarf alone wore openly a short shirt of steel-rings, for dwarves make light of burdens; and in his belt was a broad-bladed axe. Legolas had a bow and a quiver, and at his belt a long white knife. The younger hobbits wore the swords that they have taken from the barrow; but Frodo took only Sting; and his mail-coat, as Bilbo wished, remained hidden. Gandalf bore his staff, but girt at his side was the elven-sword Glamdring, the mate of Orcrist that lay now upon the breast of Thorin under the Lonely Mountain.

In modern fantasy as in medieval poems the description of armor and weapons are used as an stylistic means to flesh out the characters of the depicted heroes.
  • Gimli's equipment, as said in the session, demonstrates his prowess and sturdiness as a warrior. His axe to be 'broad-bladed' immediately invokes the impression of strength to the reader.
    [Note: It can't be a double-bladed axe. If you'd put such kind of weapon into your belt you'd run the risk of cutting your arm with every movement it makes. Also, double-bladed axes are assumed to be pure fantasy when it comes to their usage in battle. Putting a second blade to your axe serves no practical purpose, it only makes the weapon clumsier in use because it doubles the weight you've got to control. As far as I know, we don't have any archaeological findings of such kind, only some drawings on vases for example. Therefore it's the common assumption double-blade axes have been used either for ceremonial purposes only, like in sacrificing rituals, or even just invented by those artist for the sake of symmetry.
    In addition to that, historical maces and battle axes were much, much smaller than depicted in fantasy movies or pictures. It's such a huge misconception that a bigger weapon would be more effective. Looks nice on a picture but in practice it will only slow you down. Speed and control over your weapon are much more important.]
  • Legolas' equipment tells us that he prefers ranged combat with his bow but also is prepared for melee with his 'long white knife'. His knife being 'long' implies that he wants to keep his opponents at a certain distance. But why is it described as 'white'? Usually, if a colour is applied to a bladed weapon you'd think of the blade, not of the scabbard or the hilt. A 'black sword' would be a sword forged with black metal, not a black scabbard hiding the colour of the blade.
    So what is a 'white' knife supposed to tell us? The colour white is traditionally associated with purity. So I think this knife has been forged by the purest metal, light but strong, swift but endurable.
  • The Hobbit's equipments are only mentioned on the fly. Their strength obviously do not lay in their fighting skills so it would feel wrong to describe their weapons as extensive as the others.
  • Gandalf's equipment takes us on a completely other route. Of course firstly comes his staff as main role as a wizard, not a fighter. But he also has got a sword which history is mentioned to tell us he's rooted way back and surpasses all of them due to his ancient wisdom.
Hopefully those thoughts are not completely stupid but a contribution to our thought process of cracking those nuts Tolkien delivered to us.

Cheers, Spielkalb
 
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Just two short comments:

1st, well, double-bladed axes may have existed as cavalry weapons in persia for example, but i agree Gimi's axe is most likely a viking bearded axe type weapon.

2nd, i wonder if "long knife" refers to the type of weapon english weapon enthusiasts weirdly call "Messer".The color... i don't beilieve it is "pure metal", the color could refer to polished white steel, white damascene steel perhaps, or it could refer to a white handle and hilt.It usually does nowadays when you want to buy a weapon or tool... let's say a white kitchen knife - a knife with a white handle, a white Katana wallhanger - a katana with white hilt and handle.
 
Haerangil said:
2nd, i wonder if "long knife" refers to the type of weapon english weapon enthusiasts weirdly call "Messer".The color... i don't beilieve it is "pure metal", the color could refer to polished white steel, white damascene steel perhaps, or it could refer to a white handle and hilt.It usually does nowadays when you want to buy a weapon or tool... let's say a white kitchen knife - a knife with a white handle, a white Katana wallhanger - a katana with white hilt and handle.
Click to expand...

Reasonable, as the hilt is what would have been visible.
 
Spartanisches Spielkalb said:
Legolas' equipment tells us that he prefers ranged combat with his bow but also is prepared for melee with his 'long white knife'. His knife being 'long' implies that he wants to keep his opponents at a certain distance. But why is it described as 'white'? Usually, if a colour is applied to a bladed weapon you'd think of the blade, not of the scabbard or the hilt. A 'black sword' would be a sword forged with black metal, not a black scabbard hiding the colour of the blade.
So what is a 'white' knife supposed to tell us?
Click to expand...

There is a historical use of "white" for metal (going back to Beowulf), as per OED:
"white" A.I.2.b
Designating a metal or alloy that is of a very pale grey colour and lustrous appearance; made from such a metal or alloy. In early use spec. designating silver, esp. as contrasted with gold. Also (of silverware): †not gilded (obsolete); †chased or roughened rather than burnished (obsolete). Cf. white gold n.2 1a, white gold n.2 1c.
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I'd interpret that to mean either the hilt or the blade of Legolas' knife is of a shining, silvery appearance.
 
Haerangil said:
2nd, i wonder if "long knife" refers to the type of weapon english weapon enthusiasts weirdly call "Messer".
Click to expand...
Right, I didn't think of that. That'd be something like this (picture from wikipedia):

1646143204035.png

Those one-sided blades are about 1 meter long and became popular in the very end of the medieval age and the beginning of the renaissance. Woudn't quite fit to the time frame frame Tolkien had in mind and I picture a more elegant for an elf.

The color... i don't beilieve it is "pure metal", the color could refer to polished white steel, white damascene steel perhaps, or it could refer to a white handle and hilt.It usually does nowadays when you want to buy a weapon or tool... let's say a white kitchen knife - a knife with a white handle, a white Katana wallhanger - a katana with white hilt and handle.
Click to expand...
I still believe the colour is meant to describe the blade, not the hilt or handle. That'd be an unusual use of wording. I wrote 'purest metal', comparison, for a reason. So yes, polished white steel or mithril could do the trick.
 
I’ve always assumed Legolas’s knife was “white steel”, the term used for the most pure steel, which consequently took the sharpest edge before the development of blue steels, with tungsten added, and stainless steel with chromium. White steel has traditionally been favoured by sashimi chefs so they can make those lace-thin slices.
 
You mean like japanese white carbon steel? That steel isn't white in color though...

There are two different definitions of purity or cleanness in steel, the one is surface cleaning, which mostly is important for future surface coating, the other is purity of material, pure steel basically is iron.
 
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Haerangil said:
You mean like japanese white carbon steel? That steel isn't white in color though...

There are two different definitions of purity or cleanness in steel, the one is surface cleaning, which mostly is important for future surface coating, the other is purity of material, pure steel basically is iron.
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But it’s referred to as “white steel”. I wondered if it was simply a reference to the high quality and sharpness of the blade, rather than the colour.
 
But the name of white steel comes from the fact of it being delivered wrapped in white japanese paper! No i do not believe white blade can in any way refer to quality and sharpness... all their weapons were seemingly the finest, Legolas and Gimlis weapons probably being far lower in rank than Anduril but Boromirs sword somewhat more higher up.
 
Does it? How odd, I wonder why we imported paper all the way from Japan just to wrap our steel in. I shall have to look into this, thank you.
 
AzaghalsMask said:
There is a historical use of "white" for metal (going back to Beowulf), as per OED:
"white" A.I.2.b
Click to expand...

Interesting, and Tolkien would probably have been aware of it. But can you think of another instance in LOTR where Tolkien uses "white" rather than "silver" to describe bright metal even when it is shining in the sun? I can't think of any.
 
Where is the white sword in Beowulf? I couldn't find it but there is a white helmet, a white shield and a "white glaeve of light". In arthuriana Arthur has a dagger named "white hilt".

That is now even more confusing to me...
White helmet and shield possibly refer to white jewels in the helmet and white wood or learher on the shield, white glaeve of light however to me is far more likely a very shiny bright blade whuch reflects light. White hilt i think is obvious.
 
The OED quotes the "white helmet" in Beowulf as an example (and many later ones). It could therefore have another meaning in that context than "metal", but I give the compilers of the dictionary the benefit of the doubt (that they had more info or knowledge) to conclude that "white" here has the specific meaning of metal and not one of the many others.
 
Yeah, i read a comparison to the sutton hoo type helmet, if polished in a special way it would have been very shiny and bright, at last the lighter plates, a poet or scop could have called such an appearance "white".

Question is, would Tolkien have referred to that or would he have thought, as he sometimes did, "no this isn't right, it should be actually really white!". He had such thoughts on walking forests and giant spiders... on white blades?
 
Haerangil said:
But the name of white steel comes from the fact of it being delivered wrapped in white japanese paper! No i do not believe white blade can in any way refer to quality and sharpness... all their weapons were seemingly the finest, Legolas and Gimlis weapons probably being far lower in rank than Anduril but Boromirs sword somewhat more higher up.
Click to expand...
I think, on rereading, that we are talking at cross-purposes. I used the sashimi chefs as an example but was maybe conflating their white steel with ours. I assumed they were the same thing but perhaps I’m wrong there. Our white steel is the one of the types of steel my father used to order for his company. It had been superseded as the best for blade-making by our time, and we used it for other purposes, but once it was the best for taking an edge.
 
Hmm...

Some steel is good for knives but not exactly for swords, it is a complicated thing...
I used to be a steelworker... of course we didn't smith sords but tools and stuff...
For swords i think you'd wanna use high or mid carbon steel, not pure steel...
I guess

You'd want it not to be brittle.
 
Agreed, I’m far from expert but have been on the periphery of such things for much of my life so have an idea, but not much of one!
I note Tolkien calls it a knife though, not a sword. Were he talking of hobbits then maybe some confusion could arise due to most swords being too big for them and them consequently wearing knives and short swords as long swords and presumably using them as such. He wasn’t though, he was talking of an elf and nowhere else (I think) does he mention any of the larger folk wearing a knife as a weapon. I find it unlikely he thought the words interchangeable so I feel he meant some very specific object and that “white” referred to the blade rather than the handle or any holder or mount there may have been. “Long white knife” - obviously “long” means the blade, obviously the blade is what makes the thing a knife so, to me anyway, obviously “white” also relates to the blade? I have never heard of a blade being painted (??) so I’m left with “the steel is white compared to something else” - “non-white” steel? Bronze?
 
All i can say in his wordlists he often uses knife and dagger synonymously, but not sword. I really do not know what kind of weapon he had in mind, most likely a one-edged weapon, one that is slender and longer than a normal knife or dagger and is not a sword, probably with no crossguard?

If it was no langes messer type, for which youre right, it probably is the wrong era, maybe a long viking knife or long knife seax like weapon?or a celtic, la téne long knife?

On colour...yes maybe white does refer to the somewhat otherworldly character of the blade too, maybe it was some magical titanium-ceramic-silver steel alloy.
 
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In my imagination Legolas's 'long knive' would be a double-edged blade with a small cross-guard. The cross-guard is important to protect your own hands against slipping over to the blade and cutting your own hand when you attack an enemy with a thrust. Without a cross-guard your weapon reduces you to only do slashing attacks. That's why I dislike the design of elven swords without cross-guards in the Peter Jackson films. Slashing attacks are quite useless against an armoured opponent with chain mail our especially plates.

The only way to break through a mail shirt with a sword or knife is with a sharp tip and a energetic thrust which breaks the armour. You can't deliver the afforded energy to break the chains without a cross-guard, that's physically impossible.

So I'm thinking of a smaller and more slender version of a Roman gladius. Very capable of both slashing and thrusting attacks.
 
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