Brothers

Discussion in 'General Topics' started by MithLuin, Apr 10, 2017.

  1. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    As we move into Season 3, the Noldor politics are going to ramp up. Who stands with whom will not go unnoticed in the torchlit square in Tirion.

    Now...it will be important not to lose track of some of the undercurrents that will shape later relationships.

    In Season 2, we've shown Aredhel's friendship with Celegorm and Curufin, Galadriel's coolness towards the Fëanoreans, and the friendship of Maedhros and Fingon.

    What we have not really had a chance to develop are the intra-family relationships. There have been very few scenes were siblings talk privately with one another. There is one scene for Maedhros and Maglor in Formenos, but other than that....

    So, what the audience doesn't know yet is how well Fingon and Turgon get along with one another. Obviously, by the time they get across the Ice, Turgon has vowed death to all Fëanoreans (well, not a vow, per se, but...) while Fingon is wandering off on his own to rescue Maedhros. They are *clearly* not on the same page.

    And what of Maedhros and Maglor? They seem quite close to one another throughout the Silmarillion....but there is one period where they are clearly *not* seeing things eye to eye. When they set foot on Middle Earth, Maedhros is eager to return in the ships to ferry over the host of Fingolfin (well, namely his best friend Fingon). None of his brothers openly support him in this, rather actively taking part in the ship burning their Father orders. So, Maglor does not follow Maedhros' lead there. And then, after the death of Fëanor, Maedhros decides to treat with Morgoth. *None* of his brothers go with him - why not? And then when Morgoth delivers the ransom note, Maglor chooses not to respond. It is his decision not to attempt to rescue Maedhros.

    Which leads me to the question....what do Maglor and Turgon think of the great friendship between Maedhros and Fingon? As the second eldest brothers left behind, do they have *thoughts* on the matter, and does that shape any of their choices?

    Naturally, there is also the question of the younger Fëanoreans - Celegorm, Caranthir, and Curufin are *not* fans of Maedhros' leadership, but they obey him (mostly) until the aftermath of the 5th battle. That is 500 years of stewing under their older brother's command. Will we be planting any seeds of that in Season 3?
     
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  2. Marielle

    Marielle Well-Known Member

    Wow... I hadn't thought about this before, but you're right, this is a biggie!

    I don't have anything intelligent to add here just yet, besides one vague idea: we've mentioned before needing to illustrate the journey back to Middle Earth taking some time, and I'm thinking we do a couple of Doriath/ME in crisis episodes with the Noldor still sailing back, to show how much Morgoth is kicking everyone's butt. Since, obviously, we couldn't abandon the Noldor entirely during those episodes, we could cut back to a few set character pieces for the characters we need to set up long-term: Maedros, Fingon, and Turgon being three of the most important...
     
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  3. Alcarohtar

    Alcarohtar Member

    I think we need to show who's in family with who. During the oath we'll clearly see who the Fëanoreas are, but it's more difficult with the children of Fingolfin and Finarfin. When I read The Silmarillion I couldn't remember who were brothers who were cousins. I thought Fingon was the brother of Finrod for a long time. I think we need to spilt them up in the 3rd season. We have established the friendships and relationships between them now we need to split them. People win go with their families to shown they are related. Fëanoreans first, the Fingolfin folks (I really would like to have Argon in the story, it would have been so powerful to see him die when they reach Middle-Earth!), and at last the Finarfins. Finarfin of course turns back, but his children need to go on.

    Before the burning of the ships we need a lot of twin moments. Amrod must die. Sorry but it needs to happen. The it shows that the doom is already working, first Amrod in the boat, then Elenwë (wife of Turgon and mother of Idril) drown in Helcaraxë, and then Argon.
     
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  4. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    One easy way to differentiate the families will be that Finarfin's kids are all blond, while Fingolfin's kids are all dark-haired.

    But I agree that they should (for the most part) all be standing with their own families both in the party at Taniquetal at the end of Season 2, and at the beginning of the torchlit square of Tirion scene opening Season 3.

    Potentially, we have the following deaths to plan:

    Olwë (and his sons?) at the Kinslaying
    Irimë (Finwë's elder daughter) at the Kinslaying
    Amrod at the Shipburning
    Elenwë on the Helcaraxë
    Denethor son of Lenwë in battle/massacre
    Fëanor's closest guard and Maedhros' closest guard in battle
    Argon in battle

    So, plenty of death in the first half of Season 3, I think! [Though we may choose not to have all of those.]
     
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  5. Marielle

    Marielle Well-Known Member

    This is the Silmarillion, after all; there's going to be a lot of deaths. I, for one, will likely only support "cutting" a death if it would get lost in the sequence of events (Argon's, for example, might not get any attention at all, considering everything else happening around it), or can be a more hurtful punch in the gut of the audience if moved later (I don't think any of the Season 3 deaths meets that yet -- but a character like [3rd Age example] Frerin, who is supposedly cut down at the beginning of a fight, maybe could last until almost the end, to build the suspense and dread).

    Also, the more character we kill off, the fewer subplots we'll need to come up with for characters later ;)
     
  6. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    Potentially, we have the following deaths to plan:

    Olwë (and his sons?) at the Kinslaying - Olwë has no named sons in the source material, but we can give him some to hang out with Galadriel in Season 2. Olwë is not stated by Tolkien to have died in the Kinslaying - this is our invention. Olwë has no role in the story after this point, though.
    Irimë (Finwë's daughter) at the Kinslaying - Tolkien said she went to Middle Earth, but not what happened to her. Killing her right away saves some invention on our part, but also gives the host of Fingolfin a reason to charge into the battle without asking too many questions of how they got to this point.
    Amrod at the Shipburning - a later suggestion by Tolkien; alternatively, he can die at the Havens of Sirion at the end of the Age (Third Kinslaying)
    Elenwë on the Helcaraxë - canon in the published Silmarillion
    Denethor son of Lenwë in battle/massacre - canon in the published Silmarillion
    Fëanor's closest guard and Maedhros' closest guard in battle - canon in the published Silmarillion
    Argon in battle - a later idea of Tolkien's; if we don't use it, there is no reason for this character to exist
     
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  7. Marielle

    Marielle Well-Known Member

    I'm not sure we need to have Olwe's sons killed at the Kinslaying. Obviously, that will finally be a in-session decision, but trying to have too many named or significant characters die in one set piece might make us either rush through some or all, or reduce the impact of the really important ones. Right now, I'd vote that Olwe and Irime be the only named characters killed in that particular sequence.

    I'm tempted, for extra punch, to have Earwen kill Irime. I've been assuming that Feanor kills Olwe to set off the Kinslaying, so the Teleri king couldn't kill her, but it would be a shame for Irime to be killed by a redshirt Teler. Having Earwen kill her sister-in-law would be a nasty literalization of the tragedy.

    If we do that, though, we might need to make the din of battle chaotic enough that Fingolfin doesn't see who kills Irime, just her die/see her fallen corpse. He'd definitely recognized Earwen, after all, and we can't have him hunting her down in the battle, or deciding to get involved but leave alone his sister's killer.

    Having Earwen be actively involved can also play a role in Finarfin's decision. Finding her on the battlefield, mourning over the sister she felt compelled to cut down (and we can have her not intend the blow be fatal, or not recognize her in her armour until it's too late, or something else to mitigate her guilt) would bring home the consequences, I think. It also could complicate her children's feelings: Mom killing a beloved aunt could lead Galadriel to think "well, neither side is wholly innocent here", since they might not know the whole story.
     
  8. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member

    My only question about this is a logistical one about how we get Amrod on the ships by himself for long enough. One would presume these ships don't have a lot of decks. If he were to smell smoke, he would likely just ... get off. It's not like he can just be asleep.
     
  9. Marielle

    Marielle Well-Known Member

    I seem to remember that he is actively hiding on the Ship, as he plans on commandeering one and sailing back home? If so, he could be simply trapped: by the time he smells smoke or sees fire, the timbers are ablaze and falling, and he's caught in the belly of the Ship.
     
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  10. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member


    Ah, that works. Whatever apparatus is being used to burn the ship could also block the door. It also means that we'll need to set this up in the preceding episodes.
     
  11. Marielle

    Marielle Well-Known Member

    The problem with having him actively planning to return home might be: "why isn't his brother with him?" Why would one twin decide to stay, and the other leave?
     
  12. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member

    I'm thinking that he might be too ashamed to admit this to even his twin brother for fear of being dubbed a coward.
     
  13. Alcarohtar

    Alcarohtar Member

    That's not so hard. Just because they're twins doesn't mean that they are the same person. They have their own meanings, feelings and thoughts. I have a twin and we both hate when people think of us as one person. We fight all the time and disagree on almost all.
    They could be talking about it, but one gets angry on the other because he want to leave. Maybe he hides after they fight over it. Amras could tell Fëanor and when he hears that many (at least Amrod and Maedhros) want to travel back, he burns the boats to prevent anyone from sailing back. Unfortunatly Amrod's there:(
     
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  14. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    IF we decide to tell the story of Amrod-dying-in-the-Shipburning, then we will have to do a lot of set-up for that moment. Nerdanel and Fëanor have their final quarrel in between the Oath and the Kinslaying, which would allow for her to bring up the issue of 'Don't steal all of my sons from me!' and his insistence that the only reason she's losing them is because she's being stubborn and won't go with them. We would have to see Amrod and Amras discussing the Kinslaying and disagreeing over the trip to Middle Earth in the ships while abandoning the other Noldor. Amrod will have to come up with a plan, and not tell anyone, so...that will be interesting to show.
     
  15. Marielle

    Marielle Well-Known Member

    Didn't mean to hit any pet peeves! Sorry!

    The reason I thought this might be a problem is that these two twins are described in ways that make me think they're quite close, not least of which is their sharing a mother-name, "Ambarussa", which is what they called each other.
     
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  16. Alcarohtar

    Alcarohtar Member

    They can be close and still disagree on things ;)
     
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  17. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member

    This seems all the more reason to have Amrod not tell Amras what he is thinking. It is not the thoughts we agree on that we hide from our loved ones, but the things we disagree with. We fear the recriminations of those closest to us far more than we do those of strangers. Think about the things you avoid saying over holiday dinner that you would say without fear in front of anyone at work.
     
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  18. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    Yes. We will need to have some sort of scene where the two are talking, and Amrod ends the conversation by mentioning that he forgot something on the ship and has to go get, and wandering off......

    If we're doing this, I mean.
     
  19. amysrevenge

    amysrevenge Active Member

    I think it's a good way to do tell the bes5 story.
     

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