Brothers

In my opinion, Findis is the 'nice' (quiet) sister who follows Indis' lead and goes for a peacemaker role.

Irimë is...not. She's fiery. She has *opinions*. And she's fiercely loyal to her brother Fingolfin. She, like Galadriel, is a natural opponent of Fëanor. (We gave her an artistic interest in glass-blowing.)

So, the interesting part comes when their father Finwë dies. Irimë is hell-bent on vengeance. Her mourning for her father turns very much to 'Morgoth must pay!' So, in a surprise move, she supports Fëanor, not Fingolfin, in the torchlit-square in Tirion. Obviously, she's not part of the Oath, and she doesn't abandon Fingolfin. But she is very pro-Fëanor in that conversation, in the sense of being all about going back to Middle Earth right the heck now - and this is a marked change from how she has been vocal against him in the past. Her shift would be a good way of showing how persuasive Fëanor's rhetoric has become, but her own grief is the primary reason for the change of heart. We can set that up in the tail end of S2Ep13 by showing her totally wrecked when she sees Finwë's body.

That way, her death in the Kinslaying makes sense as the end of her story, and (in a way) will prefigure Fëanor's demise. She disregards the rightness (or in this case, wrongness) of the Noldor position, because they really need those boats....so she recklessly rushes in. Seeing her fall, Fingolfin then rushes in without stopping to find out how the fighting started.

I was imagining Irimë shot down by Teleri arrows (the Teleri aren't unarmed, but the Noldor have swords and they....don't.) I was not imagining Earwen participating in the Kinslaying at all (just mourning the bodies afterwards), but her (unnamed) brothers could be guilty. There is a scene of them talking with Galadriel earlier in Season 2, so they aren't exactly redshirts (though obviously very minor background characters). I don't think we have to stick to 'only women fight women' or anything like that.
 
I was imagining Irimë shot down by Teleri arrows (the Teleri aren't unarmed, but the Noldor have swords and they....don't.) I was not imagining Earwen participating in the Kinslaying at all (just mourning the bodies afterwards), but her (unnamed) brothers could be guilty. There is a scene of them talking with Galadriel earlier in Season 2, so they aren't exactly redshirts (though obviously very minor background characters). I don't think we have to stick to 'only women fight women' or anything like that.
I only suggested Earwen because she's, to my memory, the only named Teler in Valinor besides her father, and I didn't want Irime killed by a redshirt. But arrows works too, I think -- it's more... memorable? dramatic? than being cut down by a redshirt. At least to my mind.

Once I thought of Earwen, though, I thought she could be an interesting symbol for the large but subtle effect the Kinslaying has on the Teleri. They did nothing wrong, but they did shed elven -- kin -- blood. They're changed by the experience, too, and we could show that with her more quickly than with anyone else, especially if she literally had to kill her sister-in-law. Finarfin's shock at the horrible event, too, could serve as an understandable catalyst for his re-evaluated and renouncing Feanor's plan.

But if no one else likes the idea, I'll let it drop.
 
Can I weigh in?

I think Amrod definitely needs to die. Accidentally killing his son shows more clearly than anything how the Curse is bringing Feanor down. His reaction after he learns, when he hides his dismay and appears nonchalant about it, just heightens how awful he has become. This could be a moment for him to repent, to finally see that in killing other elves he has gone too far... but he hardens his heart and continues on the path he has set for himself, without remorse.

As for how it happens, I usually consider "what really happened" to be whatever Tolkien wrote last about a subject, unless it's wildly incompatible with everything (so I disregard the last word about Galadriel not participating in the Rebellion at all). So I imagine that the Feanorians arrive on shore, and Maedhros and Feanor have the conversation recorded in the 1977 Quenta Silmarillion. But instead of burning the ships right away, Feanor just stews about how his sons are turning "traitor" and waits till they're all asleep. Then, as in the Shibboleth of Feanor, he wakes up Curufin and some others who are the most loyal to his madness, and burns the ships. The fire and smoke wake everybody, but Amrod is trapped in his ship. And Feanor comes back from the burning all but declaring that Maedhros and Amrod are "faint-hearted and traitors" for wanting to go back. In this scenario Amros knows his twin is on the ship, but has not told his father before going to sleep because he knew what Feanor would think and he sees how well it went when Maedhros naively suggested going back.

I think there should also be a scene showing the surviving brothers' reactions to Amrod's death. With Amros being the most wrathful at his father (out of the brothers), but Maedhros also wondering, if he had said nothing, would Feanor not have burned the ships, killed his brother, and stranded the other Noldor? And Curufin feeling awful but trying to hide it because he is far, FAR too proud to ever admit wrongdoing.


The deaths planned for Alqualonde surprise me. I think if Olwe was killed Tolkien would have mentioned it... but with the near-total lack of named Teleri I think that the Kinslaying has to kill some Teleri who we got to know in Season 2 (or get to know, if 2 has not been scripted yet). But I think Tolkien did say that Irime survived and lived in Hithlum, where she was called Lalwen. On the other hand I have long had a problem with Finwe's daughters being tacked onto the genealogy as an afterthought and not getting any children, so if she died and her children went home with Finarfin that might explain why they never appear.

I do not like the idea of Earwen killing Irime, though.


I think in the inter-family relationships, Tolkien said that the sons of Fingolfin and Finarfin were all so close to each other that they might as well all have been brothers. The Shibboleth of Feanor also has some great discussion on the personalities of some of the descendants of Finwe, and how they felt towards each other. And it includes a funny story that Feanor loved Galadriel's hair since the time before he made the Silmarils, and "begged" three times for some of it, but she refused him each time. I think of that story whenever I reread Farewell to Lorien. Out of all of her family he was the only one she actively disliked, at least until the Kinslaying. Also from that text I get the impression her thought-reading/telepathy/osanwe talent was at least as powerful as Finrod's, putting her on par with him as the greatest telepath among the Children of Illuvatar.

Are you going with the story that Galadriel and Celeborn fought in the Kinslaying in defense of Alqualonde? I don't think they should sail to Middle-earth in their own ship, but they could have a ship which the Feanorians steal. I think it makes the most sense for them to march across the Grinding Ice in Finrod's company.
 
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Can I weigh in?

I think Amrod definitely needs to die. Accidentally killing his son shows more clearly than anything how the Curse is bringing Feanor down. His reaction after he learns, when he hides his dismay and appears nonchalant about it, just heightens how awful he has become.

As for how it happens, I usually consider "what really happened" to be whatever Tolkien wrote last about a subject, unless it's wildly incompatible with everything (so I disregard the last word about Galadriel not participating in the Rebellion at all). So I imagine that the Feanorians arrive on shore, and Maedhros and Feanor have the conversation recorded in the 1977 Quenta Silmarillion. But instead of burning the ships right away, Feanor just stews about how his sons are turning "traitor" and waits till they're all asleep. Then, as in the Shibboleth of Feanor, he wakes up Curufin and some others who are the most loyal to his madness, and burns the ships. The fire and smoke wake everybody, but Amrod is trapped in his ship. In this scenario Amros knows his twin is on the ship, but has not told his father before going to sleep because he knew what Feanor would think and he sees how well it went when Maedhros naively suggested going back.

I think there should also be a scene showing the surviving brothers' reactions to Amrod's death. With Amros mostly feeling wrathful at his father but Maedhros wondering, if he had said nothing, would Feanor not have burned the ships, killed his brother, and stranded the other Noldor? And Curufin feeling awful but trying to hide it because he is far, FAR too proud to ever admit wrongdoing.


The deaths planned for Alqualonde surprise me. I think if Olwe was killed Tolkien would have mentioned it... but with the near-total lack of named Teleri I think that the Kinslaying has to kill some Teleri who we got to know in Season 2 (or get to know, if 2 has not been scripted yet). But I think Tolkien did say that Irime survived and lived in Hithlum, where she was called Lalwen. On the other hand I have long had a problem with Finwe's daughters being tacked onto the genealogy as an afterthought and not getting any children, so if she died and her children went home with Finarfin that might explain why they never appear.

I do not like the idea of Earwen killing Irime, though.


I think in the inter-family relationships, Tolkien said that the sons of Fingolfin and Finarfin were all so close to each other that they might as well all have been brothers. The Shibboleth of Feanor also has some great discussion on the personalities of some of the descendants of Finwe, and how they felt towards each other. And it includes a funny story that Feanor loved Galadriel's hair since the time before he made the Silmarils, and "begged" three times for some of it, but she refused him each time. I think of that story whenever I reread Farewell to Lorien. Out of all of her family he was the only one she actively disliked, at least until the Kinslaying. Also from that text I get the impression her thought-reading/telepathy/osanwe talent was at least as powerful as Finrod's, putting her on par with him as the greatest telepath among the Children of Illuvatar.

Are you going with the story that Galadriel and Celeborn fought in the Kinslaying in defense of Alqualonde? I don't think they should sail to Middle-earth in their own ship, but they could have a ship which the Feanorians steal. I think it makes the most sense for them to march across the Grinding Ice in Finrod's company.
First of all, welcome to SilmFilm! And your reasoning for Amrod's death is similar to mine, but better said.

When considering "what really happened", however, it's more complicated for me than the last thing Tolkien wrote=final say. In Treason of Isengard, for example, we learn that Tolkien momentarily considered making Aragorn a descendant of Turin. If he had stopped writing at that point, and that's the last word on the Turin story we had, would we be obligated to give Turin a living child? I wouldn't think so. So I tend to think of new ideas in the late materials that way, as concepts he's considering but not necessary the gospel truth of Middle Earth. That being said, I do try to give credence to anything he seemed to have thought through in some detail, and even scraps of ideas if they're interesting. Except for the all-wise perfect Galadriel, because that's a) boring and b) grossly contradicts her whole character arch of the published LotR.

We decided to kill Olwe (if I remember correctly) not just because we need named people to die at the Kinslaying, but because while Tolkien never says he died there, he's not mentioned ever again in the published text. Even when the Teleri take the Vanyar over, there's no mention of their king. He has to drop out of the narrative for a reason, ergo, let's kill him. Plus, he needed a character arch, preferable thwarted to show the ill consequences of Feanor's rebellion for everyone around him. Irime dying was a similar idea. I know she lives in the text, but only because she does literally nothing expect stay with her mother. I have abandoned the idea that Earwen kills her. Now I want Olwe to do so. Is that better? ;)

Celeborn in our account is an elf of Doriath, born at Cuivienen, who refused to travel on with Olwe but continued the search for Elwe. Galadriel's role at the Kinslaying has not yet been decided, but in keeping with wanting to keep flawed Galadriel (see above) I would rather her be frozen, unable to decide between the two sides at Aqualonde. Yes, her uncle was being a jerk, but they really need (want) to go to Middle Earth, and they're just ships, why not just give them to us, and they were throwing stones, so they really started it, but oh no they're getting killed... That sort of thing. We can debate her role on the Episode 2 thread.
 
Aw, I was really hoping Celeborn would be a Teler of Alqualonde and grandson of Olwe.
If he is a Sinda, I think he should have the genealogy JRRT made for Sindarin!Celeborn, as the son of Galadhon son of Elmo, bother of Elwe and Olwe.

I also wonder how there were brothers and cousins among the first generation of Elves. Did Elwe, Olwe, Elmo, and Cirdan have a common ancestor in some earlier generation who was not a leader, or were they somehow akin (and knew it) without having any parents?
 
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I also liked the idea of celeborn as an elf of alqualonde better, but the execs made their decision and again now so be it. I can live with that version quite well.

Still in some way i would like to see galadriel interventing in the fight on the teleri side. I would like that. It would give her being banned despite her fighting her own family at alqualonde some interesting twist.

However amrod i would prefer to die at losgar instead. In the versions of the pub sil where he appears in later times we can use one of his brothers instead of hinself as amras companion.
 
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I see the point about Olwe disappearing from the narrative. And I can live with Celeborn being Sindarin, I just prefer him being Telerin more.

I really like the depiction of Galadriel in The Shibboleth of Feanor, though, and hope that is the depiction used for her. It's entirely consistent with the LotR, and really shows her as a force to be reckoned with, and very much as Finrod's sister, in "stature" or "greatness", and also in personality. Mightier than he, but less wise in her youth.

Galadriel as a person so unflawed that she took no part in the Rebellion (when even Finarfin initially joined it)... well aside from contradicting every First Age story involving her, it just doesn't square with the woman who wanted to claim the One Ring and rule the whole world. She had some definite flaws to overcome, and the Mirror of Galadriel scene is the crisis moment when she finally overcomes her biggest, or one of her biggest. Her character in the First Age is less wise (and more Cursed) than in the Third Age.

I think after Losgar it's pretty easy to write Amrod out of the story... in the versions where he survived Losgar, he and Amros did every single thing together. He plays no role that Amros can't play just as well alone.
 
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Glad your account is working and you're able to post here now!

I agree with you on Amrod - killing him off there literally causes no problems later, because he did not without his twin in the rest of the story, and even together they did very little on their own. And we can likely find some way for Amras' death to parallel his brother's. They'll both be dying on the coast of Beleriand, and perhaps Amras can go up in flames at the Havens, too, or something.

Galadriel refusing Fëanor's request for her hair as a child is in! That is actually our introduction of the character of Galadriel in SilmFilm. But, he only asks her the one time - we don't have the repeated requests. So, not quite like the Shibboleth account, but I think her character jives pretty well with what is written there. I agree with you that that is a good version of Galadriel to use - I'm happy with that direction for her.

One weird thing we did with Olwë was to give him an Ulmo-appointed task paired with Círdan's. So, Círdan will remain in Middle Earth and learn to build ships, so eventually all the Sindar still lingering in Beleriand will be able to make the journey to Valinor. And Olwë has gone to Valinor and build ships, so that eventually the elves in Aman can return to Beleriand. It's like Ulmo knew that the separation was a bad thing and he was trying to keep the way open. But it's all weird dream-messages and intimations of destiny, rather than some clearly laid out plan.

And the Teleri fleet *will* eventually carry the host of Valinor to Middle Earth to defeat Melkor/Morgoth....but not yet, and Fëanor's impatience is going to burn a lot of bridges. Heh.
 
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