Casting: Ethnicity and Migration Patterns of the First Age

One addition: Amarië is a Vanya, so presuming her to be blond is fairly reasonable, though of course we don't have to go that way.

Personally, I would picture Nerdanel as having brown hair with red highlights, but I recognize that there is some leeway with her.

Aulë should be our prototype for the dwarves, and Tulkas should have blond hair (his name literally means 'blond dude' so it would be like having a non-blond Glorfindel). I feel like Nienna should wear a veil (could be transparent), so her eye color might not be terribly important.

Basically, I would prefer to develop distinctive cultures, so that we can visually distinguish between groups, and I would like there to be some thought put into making relatives look...related.

This is likely going to be most important with Luthien, who is going to be so definitive in so many bloodlines, and should look as if she is herself a blend of two rather different backgrounds.

I agree that there is no need to white-wash the cast. True, one *could* picture practically everyone in the Silmarillion as Northern European and likely get away with it. But...hardly necessary. A use of more variety will help keep our cast of thousands clearer in the audience's minds.
 
I agree that there is no need to white-wash the cast. True, one *could* picture practically everyone in the Silmarillion as Northern European and likely get away with it. But...hardly necessary. A use of more variety will help keep our cast of thousands clearer in the audience's minds.

We live in the age of political correctness, you can't get away with white-washing anything :p

Now, I like idea of a clearly reacially mixed Luthien, because it would also add to the telling of the story.

Which made me think of Denise Vasi, who is totally gorgeous and clearly mixed.

Denise+Vasi.jpg
 
Casting directors are seldom politically correct. They cast who they think will go over with the audience well, and thus do more to perpetuate stereotypes than to break them. In a world where you can cast Benedict Cumberbatch as Khan Noonien Singh (a role originally played by Mexican actor Ricardo Montalban)...you can white-wash casting choices and get away with it. I am not endorsing this, just...acknowledging reality. Sure, people complain about a white Tiger Lily in Peter Pan...but she was cast, wasn't she?

A TV show about Vikings is going to be full of blond haired blue eyed white folks, and...that isn't a bad thing. The important thing for us to remember is that the Silmarillion is *not* immediately analogous to real-world cultures, so we don't *have* to go with the elves as Germanic peoples (or whatever people think Tolkien might have had in mind with them.) We get to choose (and justify to ourselves) greater diversity than that. [And yes, I acknowledge that the 13th Warrior finds a clever way to work an Arab into a Viking story, and Marvel cast Idris Elba as Heimdall. We wouldn't be doing anything out of the ordinary.]

No matter who we cast as Luthien, people will be disappointed and say "I don't think [actress] is really all that pretty." It's annoying, but I think having a bigger picture in mind than just 'prettiest girl ever' will help to capture the character. So, the blended ancestry aspect is a really good consideration to keep in mind. And, well, obviously she'll need to be able to sing.....
 
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I never said it was a bad thing to have a full-white cast when it is not only justifiable, but also expected or necessary, as in a Vikings tv show. I do not think there are any Mexican actors now who can do what Cumberbatch did, sorry, but there aren't. I should know, I am a Mexican.

That does not mean that directors won't get bashed for not being "diverse" or casting acording to race. (Rooeny Mara might be a good actress, but I think Kawennahere Devery Jacobs would have been better for Tiger Lily).

The thing with the Silmarillion is that in the realms of fantasy you can do pretty much whatever you want. Hence Idris Elba... who makes the roll work because he is a great actor.

And in what moment did anyone said elves had to be Germanic looking?

About Luthien, you are right, beauty is subjective. I just offered an example of what I imagined... but we also have to consider the casting for Thing and Melian in casting Luthien, I mean... imagine they both are dark haired and she's blonde, or something of sorts (just an example.)
 
Haha, well, Khan Noonien Singh, as a character, is meant to be Indian. I think Ricardo Montalban played him brilliantly and really enjoyed him in Space Seed and Wrath of Khan. I didn't necessarily think he should have been played by a Mexican actor in Into Darkness, but....it's hard not to notice that Benedict Cumberbatch doesn't really look like someone named Khan, does he? I guess I was a bit disappointed that some of the diversity of the original Trek was being wiped out with that casting choice. I'm not saying he did a bad job with the role, and I hated the movie for other reasons that had nothing to do with casting.

You're right, no one has said that the cast should be all-white, or Germanic, or anything like that. At least no one here in these discussions. But Peter Jackson's movies exist. We've seen his elves. And his dwarves. And his Men of Rohan. And his hobbits. Etc... The cast of the good guys in LotR and the Hobbit is overwhelmingly white. Like, 100%. Are there *any* exceptions to that? I know there are a few pale orcs (including the Moria goblins), but the darker skin tones are completely reserved for the Uruk-hai and the evil Men. Not exactly...encouraging.

But because of that, there have to be plenty of people who would assume, without even stopping to consider why, that all of the elves....and the men....and the dwarves...and the Valar....would be white. Pretending that that viewpoint isn't out there would be...a mistake? And Tolkien is often criticized for his lack of diversity by modern audiences, so it's not like you can't use the text to support that. In fact, if we were to make even the Valar representative of many different cultures/peoples, the comment would likely be that we are 'changing' Tolkien's ideas.
 
There is never a way to please everyone.

And I think that it might be natural to assume everyone is white because of the time Tolkien lived in, I mean, the man was born in the 1890s so it is logical to assume that diversity was not a common topic back then. At least not until decades later. BUT!!!!! I do believe that different races such as dwarves, elves, men... should have different carachteristics ethnically speaking.

Even between one race, so to speak. And that could be considered part of the books, even. If you look at the Gondorians the average look is dark hair, gray eyes. While the people of Rohan tend to be blonde (need to check again if that is in the book, sorry).

So if you put three blonde elves how can you tell who's a Vanya, who's a Noldo, and who's a Sinda?

For example: The Vanyar could be your tipical Germanic blondes, I imagine the Noldor could look Easter Asian, the Teleri and the Sinda could look Meditarranean...
 
One addition: Amarië is a Vanya, so presuming her to be blond is fairly reasonable, though of course we don't have to go that way.

Personally, I would picture Nerdanel as having brown hair with red highlights, but I recognize that there is some leeway with her.

I'm sorry to butt in without having listened to the podcasts yet, but I have something constructive to add: we do know what Nerdanel looks like. :)

The Shibboleth of Fëanor
notes that the first and last of her children had "the reddish hair" or "the red-brown hair" of Nerdanel's kin. It also notes that Caranthir "was dark (brown) haired, but had the ruddy complexion of his mother" (my emphasis). According to these inferences, she should have ruddy skin but a different hair color than Caranthir's dark (brown) hair.

Just above, he had written that Caranthir had black hair. (Tolkien also writes about Elvish hair colors here and there in Parma Eldalamberon 17, where he wavers on whether Elves ever had black hair, or merely dark brown). Despite this, note 61 on Nerdanel's father says "His hair was not as dark or black as was that of most of the Noldor, but brown, and had glints of coppery-red in it."

The Problem of Ros then notes that the "red, red-brown hair" of those sons was inherited "from their maternal grandfather" (my emphasis).

With all of these pieces together, I would expect that Nerdanel had ruddy skin (no question), but did not share Caranthir's hair color (whether black or dark brown). Additionally, if those sons inherited red or red-brown hair from her father, she would not have it herself. If black, dark brown, and red / red-brown are eliminated, she is left with silver (Telerin heritage is not mentioned), blonde (Vanyarin heritage is not mentioned), or brown.

Christopher Tolkien mentions that there were "many experimental etymological notes on the Eldarin words referring to red colour and copper, and on the names of the twin brothers, which are here omitted", but they have been presented in Vinyar Tengwar 41 and confirm that Nerdanel had "brown hair and a ruddy complexion".

Regarding Amarië, Quendi & Eldar notes that "nearly all members" of the Vanyar (my emphasis) had yellow or deep-golden hair. So there's some leeway, and a range of different shades of blond.

As mentioned, rule-bending is possible, though there is some more canon to dig up if desired (including the Sindar and occasionally the Valar).
 
Well, what are we thinking 'ruddy' complexion means? It means somewhat red-faced, so rosy cheeks, but that's easily done with makeup (as the brown hair can be done with a wig). Would we want to make those with 'ruddy' complexions more brown-skinned, though?
 
I never said it was a bad thing to have a full-white cast when it is not only justifiable, but also expected or necessary, as in a Vikings tv show. I do not think there are any Mexican actors now who can do what Cumberbatch did, sorry, but there aren't. I should know, I am a Mexican.

Are we really saying Cumberbatch did a good job in that terrible movie? He keeps getting cast in big budget movies as this stock character type that is just boring. I literally cringe whenever I hear he's been cast in anything, because I know it's going to be the same thing all over again. The only work I like of his is his voice work, and when he plays other character types (everyone go listen to him in Cabin Pressure now, you're life will be better); he's a great character actor and yet he keeps getting cast as the same thing.

And yeah there might not be any obvious known Mexican actors currently working, but that isn't really an excuse. An actual professional casting director could have found someone who would have been good at it. One of the problems with race and casting right now is that POC actors/actresses aren't in demand, thus not many people of color grow up to pressure such a career path. The ones who do usually can't find enough work, that's why we see the same small crowd of people continually recast in everything; those are the lucky ones.

As for Vikings, has that show really not included any of Norway's native Sami people yet or middle-easterns, who the vikings had an established trade route to?

And I think that it might be natural to assume everyone is white because of the time Tolkien lived in, I mean, the man was born in the 1890s so it is logical to assume that diversity was not a common topic back then. At least not until decades later. BUT!!!!! I do believe that different races such as dwarves, elves, men... should have different carachteristics ethnically speaking.

I get why people make this argument, but Tolkien has canon colored characters and people groups in his text. He actively describes characters as having darker skin, and not just the easterns/southerns.
 
Are we really saying Cumberbatch did a good job in that terrible movie? He keeps getting cast in big budget movies as this stock character type that is just boring. I literally cringe whenever I hear he's been cast in anything, because I know it's going to be the same thing all over again. The only work I like of his is his voice work, and when he plays other character types (everyone go listen to him in Cabin Pressure now, you're life will be better); he's a great character actor and yet he keeps getting cast as the same thing.

I call that... "The Johnny Depp Syndrome". I was just stating that while the movie was not a jewel in the universe of movies, he is in general not a bad actor. But I guess once people are fascinated with something and they keep buying it, it becomes kind of... well, they keep using the same marketing recipe because it worked once.

An actual professional casting director could have found someone who would have been good at it. One of the problems with race and casting right now is that POC actors/actresses aren't in demand, thus not many people of color grow up to pressure such a career path. The ones who do usually can't find enough work, that's why we see the same small crowd of people continually recast in everything; those are the lucky ones.

So we go from the international actores, to national ones: we need Chinese/Japanese/Korean/East Asian actors? We leave Hollywood and go to Doramas, for example. Indian actors? We go to Bollywood, another example

As for Vikings, has that show really not included any of Norway's native Sami people yet or middle-easterns, who the vikings had an established trade route to?

I mean the Viking thing only as an example, as for the actual show, well... Like many TV shows, it is quite unnacurate and I don't believe that many would not be able to argue the contrary without making fools out of themselves to someone who has studied their culture. It is like The Borgias, Reign, and The Tudors... marketing and make belief

Tolkien has canon colored characters and people groups in his text. He actively describes characters as having darker skin, and not just the easterns/southerns.

I know that, you know that, most of us here know that.... but there are many people who have either read very little, or only watched the movies, so they would sum what they saw with the little info they might have of the author.

The question here is... what ethnic races will we use to portray which people and then we can part from there on the more minute casting. I know the Valar are no matter with regards to that because they can change their physical appearance.
 
I call that... "The Johnny Depp Syndrome". I was just stating that while the movie was not a jewel in the universe of movies, he is in general not a bad actor. But I guess once people are fascinated with something and they keep buying it, it becomes kind of... well, they keep using the same marketing recipe because it worked once.

Yeah I wouldn't say he did a bad job acting in that film, but the direction the writer/director took was super boring. So basically he had little to work with and was probably told to act that way. It's a shame because he does have range, they just never let him use it.


So we go from the international actores, to national ones: we need Chinese/Japanese/Korean/East Asian actors? We leave Hollywood and go to Doramas, for example. Indian actors? We go to Bollywood, another example

Haven't a lot of the more notable POC actors immigrated after finding traction here? I'm mainly thinking of some of the now-older bigger name East Asian examples... It's a good strategy, and clearly worked with the individuals I'm thinking of, but I think we're past that point; America's huge; the talent is here; it's just a matter of finding it. But yeah, the whole world is open to us; the US has been stealing international actors for decades.

I mean the Viking thing only as an example, as for the actual show, well... Like many TV shows, it is quite unnacurate and I don't believe that many would not be able to argue the contrary without making fools out of themselves to someone who has studied their culture. It is like The Borgias, Reign, and The Tudors... marketing and make belief

Yeah, it is certainly a good example, in terms of mainstream audience and perpetuated general knowledge. Most people are taught that Vikings are blue-eyed/blond-haired giants. I would just hope all these educated filmmakers would dig a little deeper to find more interesting and diverse ideas, for the sake of originality if nothing else.


I know that, you know that, most of us here know that.... but there are many people who have either read very little, or only watched the movies, so they would sum what they saw with the little info they might have of the author.

The question here is... what ethnic races will we use to portray which people and then we can part from there on the more minute casting. I know the Valar are no matter with regards to that because they can change their physical appearance.

Yes, I think we're all pretty much on the same page, and are all just saying it in different ways, which can lead to confusion.

And yes, I agree that deciding on which races to use for the cultures and bigger roles should be done first before we start getting to the smaller, less defined roles like an elf like Mablung for instance. Big to small; it will help keep things in order.

Maybe a good way to help move this conversation along to its next stage is to work through each major culture group in The Silmarillion one at a time, and figure out who they really are as a people and what visual design would help support those notions; that way we can all agree on which races will be assigned to who.
 
So, since the Valar can change their appearance however they want, I think that we should pick actors without considering race, only talent.

Now... Are we doing these choices in order of aparition? In that case, do we consider the dwarves first or the elves?

If we go with the dwarves, are we considering the seven clans individually or all together as one?

If we go with the elves... Do we pick each group separetely (Silvan, Sindar, Laiquendi, etc.) or do we go with only three (Vanyar, Noldor, Teleri)?
 
So, since the Valar can change their appearance however they want, I think that we should pick actors without considering race, only talent.

Now... Are we doing these choices in order of apparition? In that case, do we consider the dwarves first or the elves?

If we go with the dwarves, are we considering the seven clans individually or all together as one?

If we go with the elves... Do we pick each group separately (Silvan, Sindar, Laiquendi, etc.) or do we go with only three (Vanyar, Noldor, Teleri)?

I say consider all the groups at once, since it doesn't really have an affect. For instance, since no one but Aule sees the dwarves before the elves anyways, it's not going to affect how they look, except in the way that is already stated in the text: that the dwarves do no look like Illuvatar's children.

The only way apparition would apply would be in the way groups divide from one another, similar to all those language trees Tolkien worked on for the different elf groups. The biggest example of this is the Teleri. The Teleri al lstart off as one group, but then they eventually divide into the Teleri at Alqualonde, the Falathrim, the Sindar in Doriath, the Green Elves of Ossirand, etc. That history and the relationships these groups have to one another during the First Age would play a role in determining and designing their cultural and racial appearance.

The Green Elves would be the most different becuase they were the longest estranged and they live isolated and on the farest edge of Beleriand. The Falathrim and the Sindar would still be very similar to the Teleri at Alqualonde because they only divided from one another near the end of the Great Journey, but the Teleri who stayed in Beleriand versus those who crossed the sea would still be more connected to one another because they continued to interact with each other all the way through the First Age. Yet at the same time, the differing requirements of the sea and forest would cause some fairly distinct cultural/dress differences between the Sindar and Falathrim, even if not necessarily racial ones.

So there's a lot of canonically established things that make all these groups fairly distinct and unique without us even getting to the make-things-up part of the discussion, and I didn't even include the scattered Sindar like the Grey elves who were living up in Mithrim, or the cross-breeding between the Teleri in Beleriand with the Noldor after their return (aka Voronwe).

It's hard to deterime a discussion order for each group becuase they are all so intwined, but if there had to be an order, I say the dwarves can probably be discussed last since they're on the fringes during the First Age and have only a minimal influence anyways. Yet at the same time, they do have an affect on Nargothrond (built by the dwarves, Turin finds a dwarf mask in armory there, etc.), Caranthir (lived next closest and had a relationship with the dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost), the sons of Feanor in general (all of them being situated in the east and fighting side-by-side with them in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears), and Eol (the elf with the strongest dwarven relations who learned smithwork from them).

We should certainly talk about the Elves first since they have a huge influence over Men, but as in terms of order maybe just:
  • Valar (can go first or last, doesn't matter, they do what they want)
  • Elves at Cuivienen
  • Vanyar (Great Journey)
  • Noldor (Great Journey)
  • Teleri (Great Journey)
  • Avari
  • Nandor
  • Green-Elves
  • Sindar/Doriath (Year of the Trees)
  • Sindar/Grey Elves in Mithrim (Year of the Trees)
  • Falathrim (Year of the Trees)
  • Vanyar (Year of the Trees)
  • Noldor (Year of the Trees)
  • Noldor/Feanorians (Year of the Trees)
  • Teleri at Alqualonde
  • Noldor/Feanorians (First Age)
  • Noldor/Fingolfin (First Age)
  • Noldor/Dorthonion (First Age)
  • Noldor/Nargothrond (First Age)
  • Sindar/Doriath (First Age)
  • Falathrim in Falas (Early First Age)
  • Noldor/Vinyamar (Early First Age)
  • Noldor/Gondolin (First Age)
  • Falathrim in Sirion (First Age)
  • Beorlings (Early First Age)
  • House of Marach (Early First Age)
  • Haladin (Early First Age)
  • Beorlings (First Age)
  • House of Hador (First Age)
  • House of Haleth (First Age)
  • Dwarves of Nogrod
  • Dwarves of Belegost
  • Petty Dwarves
P.S. We only see a small portion of the dwarves, but we can totally go all out and define the seven houses anyways.
 
We should certainly talk about the Elves first since they have a huge influence over Men, but as in terms of order maybe just:
  • Elves at Cuivienen
  • Vanyar (Great Journey)
  • Noldor (Great Journey)
  • Teleri (Great Journey)
  • Avari
  • Nandor
  • Green-Elves
  • Sindar/Doriath (Year of the Trees)
  • Sindar/Grey Elves in Mithrim (Year of the Trees)
  • Falathrim (Year of the Trees)
  • Vanyar (Year of the Trees)
  • Noldor (Year of the Trees)
  • Noldor/Feanorians (Year of the Trees)
  • Teleri at Alqualonde
  • Noldor/Feanorians (First Age)
  • Noldor/Fingolfin (First Age)
  • Noldor/Dorthonion (First Age)
  • Noldor/Nargothrond (First Age)
  • Sindar/Doriath (First Age)
  • Falathrim in Falas (Early First Age)
  • Noldor/Vinyamar (Early First Age)
  • Noldor/Gondolin (First Age)
  • Falathrim in Sirion (First Age)
So, where do we start? Are grouping the same racial group for the same people in all ages, I assume.

I think that the Teleri and the Sindar should look similar, as similar as possible without falling into the same.
 
Well, what are we thinking 'ruddy' complexion means? It means somewhat red-faced, so rosy cheeks, but that's easily done with makeup (as the brown hair can be done with a wig). Would we want to make those with 'ruddy' complexions more brown-skinned, though?

Yes, but do we really want to rely so much on that? I say let's try to go the more natural we can...
 
Bre, Great minds think alike! I just saw your nomination for Varda, and that's exactly who I was thinking of! I think Lucy Liu would be perfect! I was also thinking about her for some other roles, like Uinen (independently of our show yesterday). I definitely want to see her in the cast somewhere, and I'd LOVE to see her as Varda!
 
Great collection of thoughts and material so far...

I support the Idea that the Valar and Maiar are composed of different ethnicities, but I also see the decision that the Eldar are mostly depicted as caucasians/Europeans as well founded by the texts.

However I still think Elves do not really have ethnicities in our sense... theyy all descend from a few hundred Elves that awoke at cuivienen and when they split up they mostly did in the way of families or clans and because of loyalties to charasmatic leading figures. That should still hold open the possibility of the Elves being more mixed and Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri not being strict ethnicities in the close sense...

And I still would like the appearance of some Black-African or East-Asian Elves at last among the Avari.If Elves are meant to be greater and more extreme Versions of humans, I think there should also be -at least in theory- "Elvish Versions" of all known human ethnicities/Types.

However so far I support the Idea that at last the Vanyar should for the most part be largely of northern and middle-european appearance... at last the leading families seem to be described by JRRT as european in appearance. I also like the Idea of the Noldor being more mediterranear/Southern European or maybe even near-eastern in Appearance and the Teleri of being more of a mixed lot.

That however would not completely rule out the idea that there could be some black or east Asian or actors of mixed descent cast als Elves ...
I see that a black african with a golden wig as a Vanya could look funny, but I wouldn't mind some Vanyar have a more asian appearance.Also I wouldn't mind some actors with Asian or darker complexion among the Noldor and Teleri. At least for the Noldor there are a few textual evidences of ruddy or reddish skin tones (might also indicate red-haired "irish"-types though). And Maeglin is described as rather small and dark-skinned in the Lost Tales, I know that in that period he was still intended to be orc-blooded... but i still like the Idea and that description stuck to me.

As for the Edain i really think of them as the Human Versions of the Vanyar (Marachians), Noldor (Beorians) and Teleri (Halethrim)... but I seem to remember that Tolkien at some point indicated darker complexion for the Haladin and some Beorians? Maybe some of them also could have a more mediterranean or even near-eastern or north-african look (given the fact that they were relatives of the Indigenious populance of Southern Gondor).

What do you think of the Easterlings? Many Artists like to depict them similar to Huns or Mongols...
Tolkien himself gives us little actual evidence... he once notes that maybe relatives of the Borians survived in Northern Eriador... is he refering to the Lossoth here? The later Easterlings of the Sea of Rhûn, some of which are indicated to have been related to Beleriandic Tribers, seem to be inspired by antique Indo-Iranian Cultures... I could guess tthey have diverse appearances ranging from eastern Europeans to Turk-tribes to near-eastern types.

Have you actually thought of including Giants into the plot?
 
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