Concerns about season 5

Alcarohtar

Active Member
Hey! I have thought a lot about season 5. Season 5 will include everything from the coming of men into Beleriand to the fourth battle, Dagor Bragollach. This means that we have to introduce 6-7 generations of men! :eek: The more I have thought about this the more I've realised that the older/"less interesting" generations (like Marach-Hathol) may be in danger of getting erased from the show. :mad: Therefore I suggest that we prepare ourselves for this coming fight before the next season begins.
#LetMarachExist #HadorIsNotTheFirst

This season needs to cover a lot of stuff!
  • Men entering Ossiriand, meeting the elves, moving to Estolad
  • The first deaths by age, men in service of elf-lords
  • Ladros, Brethil and Dor-Lómin given to the Edain
  • Aredhel, Eöl and Maeglin!
  • Battle of Aglon
  • Aegnor and Andreth!
  • The Dagor Bragollach
  • + a lot of men (as in humans) in between!
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Hey! I have thought a lot about season 5. Season 5 will include everything from the coming of men into Beleriand to the fourth battle, Dagor Bragollach. This means that we have to introduce 6-7 generations of men! :eek: The more I have thought about this the more I've realised that the older/"less interesting" generations (like Marach-Hathol) may be in danger of getting erased from the show. :mad: Therefore I suggest that we prepare ourselves for this coming fight before the next season begins.
#LetMarachExist #HadorIsNotTheFirst

This season needs to cover a lot of stuff!
  • Men entering Ossiriand, meeting the elves, moving to Estolad
  • The first deaths by age, men in service of elf-lords
  • Ladros, Brethil and Dor-Lómin given to the Edain
  • Aredhel, Eöl and Maeglin!
  • Battle of Aglon
  • Aegnor and Andreth!
  • The Dagor Bragollach
  • + a lot of men (as in humans) in between!
I agree with you that we should keep all the generations of Men; however, that does not mean that they all need to get screen-time and the audience learns all their names. There are already a lot of Elven names to keep track of.

One argument I see in favor of this is that erasing generations could mess with the chronology, and chronology is something we intend to pay more attention to this season. Large unknown (to the audience) swaths of time passed between events in Season 4, but, in Season 5, the presence of mortal Men will require more definite answers to how much time has passed. Whether by actually showing some of these people grow up or simply having the major human characters talk about being the great-great grandson of whoever, I think keeping the older generations would help the audience recognize that time is passing and even have some sense of how much.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Well, we have Men arriving at Ossiriand in the Season 4 finale.

We’ll likely have a scene where we show dissent amongst the Edain and acknowledge the existence of the generations between Beor and Beren, unlike Game of Thrones which adapts out the generation between Aemon Targaryen and Aerys II “The Mad King”, which doesn’t make a lot of sense since one of Aerys’ aunts is Robert Baratheon’s grandmother and this is how he stakes his claim to the Iron Throne at the end of his rebellion.

What Battle of Aglon? There doesn’t seem to be one mentioned in the database.

I’ve suggested that Sauron have a “day in the limelight” involving luring away an Elf since he’s missing from the Silmarillion until his capture of Tol Sirion, as a shout-out to Joyce Carol Oates’ “Where are you going, Where have you been”, with Sauron as Arnold Friend.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Well, we have Men arriving at Ossiriand in the Season 4 finale.

We’ll likely have a scene where we show dissent amongst the Edain and acknowledge the existence of the generations between Beor and Beren, unlike Game of Thrones which adapts out the generation between Aemon Targaryen and Aerys II “The Mad King”, which doesn’t make a lot of sense since one of Aerys’ aunts is Robert Baratheon’s grandmother and this is how he stakes his claim to the Iron Throne at the end of his rebellion.

What Battle of Aglon? There doesn’t seem to be one mentioned in the database.

I’ve suggested that Sauron have a “day in the limelight” involving luring away an Elf since he’s missing from the Silmarillion until his capture of Tol Sirion, as a shout-out to Joyce Carol Oates’ “Where are you going, Where have you been”, with Sauron as Arnold Friend.
I think the book just counts it as part of the Dagor Bragollach, but the Pass of Aglon, held by Celegorm and Curufin, fell after Dorthonion. Celegorm and Curufin escaped to Nargothrond, but Maedhros recaptured the Pass for a little while.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
We’ll have to decide how much of the events between the Fall of Fingolfin and Beren and Luthien we should show, ie Hurin and Huor in Gondolin.
 

Alcarohtar

Active Member
A suggestion of an outline of the episodes. I have no idea how to fit Aredhel and bad-guy stuff into this though, but that can be solved next season.
I want to give a lot of time to the first meeting in episode 1 so I gave the House of Bëor the whole episode.
Episode 2 has the arrival of the rest of the Edain and them living happily in Beleriand. Also introducing the concept of wise-women here.
Episode 3 reveals that men can die, and after Bëor dies a lot of people dies. The Haladin's battle with the orcs in Thargelion.
Episode 4 contains the council of Estolad, the departure of the Haladin to Brethil and Bereg southwards.
In episode 5 the elves see of the necessity of new allies after the battle of Aglon. They give men lands in Ladros (House of Bëor) and Dor-Lómin (House of Hador), the Haladin agrees to protect Doriaths borders in return for the lands in Brethil.
Episode 6 and onwards are for Andreth and Aegnor.
Some of the last episodes needs to build up to the Bragollach.
Only Adanel and Andreth are canonically wise-women, but maybe we could include Zimrahin/Meldis, Emeldir and Beldis too?
At last I want to save Saurons taking of Tol Sirion till next season, because it fits better in that season. It is more important for the storylines of Orodreth, Nargothrond, Sauron, Beren and Lúthi

E1: Men!
  • House of Bëor travels over the Blue Mountains
  • Finrod meets the house of Bëor in Ossiriand
  • House of Bëor vs Green elves
  • Amras giving Estolad to Men??
  • Bëor joins Finrod → Baran new chieftain
  • Friendship between Bëor and Finrod
E2: Men + Elves = <3!
  • Aredhel leaves Gondolin to find Curufin and Celegorm
  • House of Haleth moves into Thargelion.
  • Something about the Haladin…?
  • Aredhel meets Eöl, Maeglin is born
  • House of Marach arrives in Estolad
  • Malach leaves his father Marach to serve Fingolfin/Fingon in Hithlum
  • Marriage of Malach Aradan and Zimrahin Meldis
  • Introduce the concept of wise-woman (Zimrahin teaching her daughter Adanel?)
E3: Oh Men can die ...
  • Maeglin and Aredhel
  • Bëor tells Finrod about the “shadow”
  • Bëor dies in service to Finrod, the first death by age seen by elves
  • More men dies, including Marach. Malach returns to Estolad and takes up the chieftainship with his lady Zimrahin/Meldis.
  • The Haladin’s battle with the orcs, Haldad and Haldar dies, but Haleth and Haldan (infant) survives due to Caranthir’s help
  • Haleth denies Caranthir's protection and leads her people to Estolad
E4: Tricked by the elves/valar?
  • Eöl going away to the dwarves, Aredhel and Maeglin escaping.
  • Council of Estolad
  • Amlach (Really Sauron?) speaks against the Eldar. Amlach takes up service to Maedhros.
  • Bereg leaving with thousand people southwards.
  • Haleth leads her folk away from Estolad (why?)
  • Eöl following Aredhel to Gondolin
  • Haleth takes her people past Nan Dungortheb
  • Aredhel’s death and Eöl’s execution
  • Haleth reaching Brethil
E5: We need you guys!
  • Battle of the Pass of Aglon
  • Orcs attack, but are defeated by Maedhros, Angrod, Aegnor and the house of Bëor
  • Elves see the need for Men as allies
  • Hador (great grandson of Malach) enters the service of Fingolfin
  • House of Haleth vs Thingol
  • Ladros given to the House of Bëor
  • Boromir (grandson of Baran) is their leader
  • Dor-Lomin is given to the House of Hador
  • Fingon gives Hador the Dragon-helm.
  • More about Hador!
  • Death of Haleth, the son of her brother, Haldan is the new leader
  • Agreement with Thingol: the Haladin have to protect the borders of Doriath
E6:
  • Andreth is with Adanel learning to be a wise-woman
  • Boromir dying, Andreth and Bregor (brother) comforting each other
  • Bregor the new Lord of Ladros
  • Andreth meeting Aegnor for the first time during the ceremony
E7:
  • Andreth and Aegnor stuff...
  • Aegnor sees the reflexion of Andreth in Aeluin and falls in love (why are they there?)
E8:
  • Aegnor and Andreth in love ...
  • ???
E9:
  • Bregor (Andreth’s brother ) dies (in a skirmish with orcs?), Bregolas is the new lord of Ladros
  • Andreth meeting Finrod in the funeral/ceremony, arguing about Men
  • Aegnor distances himself from Andreth, because of the wars
  • Emeldir and Barahir are there. They have married? Emeldir is (a wise-woman? and ) the granddaughter of Adanel. They speak about love. Maybe some foreshadowing of Beren and Luthien?
E10:
  • Hareth and Haldir marries Galdor and Glóredhel making new ‘unions’ between the Haladin and the House of Hador
  • Andreth wishes to do the same just between men and elves
  • Andreth confronts Aegnor and he tells her of their laws about marriage, she tells him that she will not live forever. They cry or something :(
E11:
  • Galdor and Hareth sends Huor and Húrin (sons) to visit their family in Brethil; Halmir (their grandfather, son of Haldan) the chieftain, Haldir and Glóredhel (uncle and aunt) and Handir (cousin, Hundad and Meleth too to set up the relations to Hardang, Hunthor and Manthor?)
E12: Dagor Bragollach
  • Burning of Ard-Galen
  • The Gap of Maglor is taken
  • Maglor loses many elves, but manage to retreat to Himring
  • Thargelion is ravaged, Caranthir must flee, he seeks refuge at Amon Ereb, with his brother Amras. Amras saves his brothers life even though they are not the best of friends…
  • Pass of Aglon breached
  • Celegorm and Curufin flee to Nargothrond
  • The pass of Sirion is attacked! Hador and his son Gundor dies at Barad Eithel.
  • Finrod is about to get killed, but is rescued by Barahir who is given the ring.
  • Barahir manage to get back to Dorthonion to warn people in Ladros.
E13: Bragollach pt. 2
  • Dorthonion is attacked
  • Emeldir and Barahir parts and Emeldir leeds refugees away towards Brethil. Morwen, Rian, Beldis among the refugees.
  • Andreth refuses to go with Emeldir, as an old woman she want to see her love one last time.
  • Balrogs approaches Dorthonion. With Angrod and Aegnor in sight Andreth arrived too late and is witness to the murder of Angrod, Aegnor and Bregolas. Andreth filled with grief and despair run towards the body of Aegnor to protect it. She dies...
  • Fingolfin in single battle with Morgoth. Fingolfin dies, but his body is saved by Thorondor and sent to Gondolin. Fingolfin grieves together with Idril and Maeglin.
 

Alcarohtar

Active Member
that does not mean that they all need to get screen-time and the audience learns all their names. There are already a lot of Elven names to keep track of.
Totally agree, not everybody needs screen-time. BUT I really think that the characters that has got a story should be shown on screen. For example Malach and Zimrahin.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
It's mentioned in this timeline http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Timeline/First_Age
Year 402, 53 years before the Dagor Bragollach.
That's something different than the attack on Aglon in the Dagor Bragollach that I was thinking of. However, it is mentioned in The War of the Jewels:

"Here there was fighting on the north-marches, more bitter than there had been since the routing of Glaurung; for the Orcs attempted to pierce the pass of Aglon. There Maidros [Maedhros] and Maglor were aided by the sons of Finrod [Finarfin], and Beor was with them, the first of Men to draw sword in behalf of the Eldar."
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
That's something different than the attack on Aglon in the Dagor Bragollach that I was thinking of. However, it is mentioned in The War of the Jewels:

"Here there was fighting on the north-marches, more bitter than there had been since the routing of Glaurung; for the Orcs attempted to pierce the pass of Aglon. There Maidros [Maedhros] and Maglor were aided by the sons of Finrod [Finarfin], and Beor was with them, the first of Men to draw sword in behalf of the Eldar."
That can’t be right; Beor was dead by that point.
 

Alcarohtar

Active Member
Doesn’t seem particularly important, since it wasn’t mentioned in the published Silmarillion and there’s no article on the battle itself on the Tolkien Gateway.
It's in the War of the Jewels. I don't have the book myself :oops:
Maybe it isn't that important or big, but we could still have use of it. Right after that battle, which was fought by the Fëanorians, Angrod/Aegnor and the Beorians, the elves suddenly gave the Edain lands to dwell in. Maybe we could use that battle to give the elves reasons for letting men live right next to them? Maybe they see that they could have use of men in the fight against Morgoth?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Doesn’t seem particularly important, since it wasn’t mentioned in the published Silmarillion and there’s no article on the battle itself on the Tolkien Gateway.
I think we can certainly include it in order to have a little bit of action in whichever episode it takes place. I don't think it should be called the "Battle of Aglon," though. It is more like the attack on Hithlum repulsed by Fingon [in Silmfilm, combined with the Dagor Aglareb and repulsed by Turgon and Cirdan], which "was not reckoned among the great battles."
 

Alcarohtar

Active Member
I think we can certainly include it in order to have a little bit of action in whichever episode it takes place. I don't think it should be called the "Battle of Aglon," though. It is more like the attack on Hithlum repulsed by Fingon [in Silmfilm, combined with the Dagor Aglareb and repulsed by Turgon and Cirdan], which "was not reckoned among the great battles."
Yeah "Battle of Aglon" sounds like it's a big battle. We don't have to give it any name at all. I just wrote it in order refer to it ;)
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
That can’t be right; Beor was dead by that point.
Tolkien's ideas of the chronology were different when that passage was written. He had Beor born in 370 and the discovery of Men in 400. For Silmfilm, we can just have whichever of Beor's descendants would be alive at that time be the one to fight.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
It's in the War of the Jewels. I don't have the book myself :oops:
Maybe it isn't that important or big, but we could still have use of it. Right after that battle, which was fought by the Fëanorians, Angrod/Aegnor and the Beorians, the elves suddenly gave the Edain lands to dwell in. Maybe we could use that battle to give the elves reasons for letting men live right next to them? Maybe they see that they could have use of men in the fight against Morgoth?
And yet they’re in Dorthonion, not Aglon.
 
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