Concerns about season 5

I'd kind of rather they not do that. Those guys have houses they are supposed to be running, and shouldn't be gone indefinitely.
 
Turgon tells Aredhel, "'But you shall go only to seek Fingon, our brother; and those that I send with you shall return hither to Gondolin as swiftly as they may.'"
 
I could imagine at least a year, since she spends some time in Himring and she takes journeys to pass the time. It’s on one of these where she wanders into Nan Elmoth and is ensnared by Eol.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
You mean evil stuff for him to do during season 5? I need to know more about the definite structure of the season before we start adding subplots in.
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Yes. As the matter stands, Sauron disappears from the plot until the taking of Tol Sirion in F.A. 457; given his presence in the story, I’m not sure this is an option.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Yes. As the matter stands, Sauron disappears from the plot until the taking of Tol Sirion in F.A. 457; given his presence in the story, I’m not sure this is an option.
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Agreed. But like I said, his story is likely going to have to be woven in with the others.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
Would you say that is a defined amount of time?
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It is not a defined amount of time, but very little in The Silmarillion is. However, I think it suggests that Turgon does not want these lords to be gone long. This may be because they have responsibilities in Gondolin, but Turgon is also quite concerned about the secret of Gondolin being revealed. He mentions also to Aredhel, "I forebode that ill will come of it both to you and to me," and to the lords he sends, "there are many perils in Middle-earth of which the Lady knows nothing." He would want those he sends with Aredhel to be trustworthy enough to keep the secret of Gondolin and wise and strong enough to protect her from these unknown dangers.

While they likely have some duties required of them as lords of their houses, I don't think there would be anything that required them to be there all the time. Their main roles in the books seem to be warriors and military commanders, and Aredhel's journey takes place in peacetime. Plus Aredhel herself is a leader of one of the houses of Gondolin.
 
Rhiannon said:
It is not a defined amount of time, but very little in The Silmarillion is. However, I think it suggests that Turgon does not want these lords to be gone long. This may be because they have responsibilities in Gondolin, but Turgon is also quite concerned about the secret of Gondolin being revealed. He mentions also to Aredhel, "I forebode that ill will come of it both to you and to me," and to the lords he sends, "there are many perils in Middle-earth of which the Lady knows nothing." He would want those he sends with Aredhel to be trustworthy enough to keep the secret of Gondolin and wise and strong enough to protect her from these unknown dangers.

While they likely have some duties required of them as lords of their houses, I don't think there would be anything that required them to be there all the time. Their main roles in the books seem to be warriors and military commanders, and Aredhel's journey takes place in peacetime. Plus Aredhel herself is a leader of one of the houses of Gondolin.
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Right, so Aredhel is already leaving her house in the hands of a surrogate for an unspecified length of time (not days, but months at a minimum). The more house leaders go, the worse the problem gets. Now, if you want to have one go along so she has a named character to talk to, that's one thing. But I think the story works better if they are people who aren't her peers in Turgon's organizational structure, considering she immediately orders them to head in a different direction.
 
Okay, as I see it, there are some (mildly) 'contentious' issues, which we can't bring up with the Hosts until Season 5 begins, and should probably keep that in mind during our discussions here. On that list, I would put Aredhel's guards and Sauron's direct actions. They're not contentious because there's anything wrong with any of the suggestions, but simply because there has been disagreement, and it is going to come down to what the Hosts prefer when we get to that. So just...bear that in mind.
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The published Silmarillion does not name Aredhel's guards, because Christopher Tolkien decided it shouldn't be Glorfindel and Ecthelion. Obviously, at one point, Tolkien thought it should be. So...if JRRT and CJRT didn't agree on that point, it's no surprise that people here might not agree on it either!​
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As for Sauron...as has been pointed out to you multiple times, Ange1e4e5, people are not ignoring your concerns or sweeping them under the rug - they are simply disagreeing with you. Season 3 had a plotline where Sauron single-handedly orchestrated the destruction of Maedhros' entire army while personally standing in front of him; I know you weren't satisfied with all of the choices made there, but to suggest that Sauron doesn't fight or doesn't win in our show is to...ignore our show to this point. So, yes, you would like to see more of action hero(well, villain) Sauron. We can certainly float that idea when we get to Season 5 and see if anyone bites. As of right now, the plan for Sauron for Season 5 is the Rhogrin/Annael escape, Spell of not-so-bottomless Dread (Sauron's attempt at replicating Morgoth's action looks more like hypnosis), and use of Annael as an unwitting traitor/spy. We can add to it when we actually get to Season 5, of course - both the Amlach plan and Sauron-the-murderer can be incorporated (if the Hosts approve).​
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I do think there is value in discussing Season 5 plot arcs prior to the Season beginning, as that gives us material to suggest to the Hosts when we do begin. Like all the other Seasons, we are limited to 13 one hour episodes, and we know already what the beginning and end point will be. Episode 1 will begin with Bëor's Men entering Beleriand and meeting Finrod, and Episode 13 will end with Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth. Certainly, most of our Men won't be on screen for more than 3 Episodes, and may go from children to elderly people in that time frame. We're not going to have much opportunity to 'get to know' our human characters, and will thus have to choose a handful to really focus on during the Season.

There are three obvious focal points: Bëor (as the first, his friendship with Finrod, and his death of old age showing that yes, Men are mortal), Haleth (being her badass orc fighting self who doesn't need no elven alliance), and Andreth (who falls in love with Aegnor, and becomes bitter when he seemingly scorns her). There are several other characters we could choose to focus on (including Hador and Amlach). Any more than that, and we're talking about minor characters who exist on the show, but don't get an actual storyline of their own.

So...to the point of Malach and Marach. There was a desire expressed by the Hosts of have the peoples introduced by their permanent name, so that the audience wouldn't have to 'relearn' a name partway through the story. House of Bëor will be easy - we meet Bëor, and that's what his people are called. People of Haleth are a bit more challenging, but we can probably manage to not name them on screen until after Haleth takes over (and it's likely not the end of the world if we have to call them the Haladin all along instead of House of Haleth...but). The real issue, of course, is Hador. He doesn't come along for 4 generations, and we probably are going to want to establish that house before him.

There were a few suggestions on how to handle that. The Hosts did say that they wanted to move up Hador in the family tree - introduce him at the time when it should be Marach on screen. One way to handle this is to simply rename Marach - Marach can be Hador, and Hador can be Hador Lorindol. Having a name repeat in a human genealogy isn't that unusual. Of course, this may be even more confusing, if you now have two different characters (played by two different actors) with the same name. Definitely gives ample opportunity for 'that was my great-great-grandfrather, sir' lines, though. And lets 'Hador' be a character for a bigger chunk of the season. Basically, what was rejected was the 'House of Marach' placeholder name. The character of Marach can be included, if we can find a way to sidestep that.
 
I think it will be difficult to avoid some confusion about the individual Men, except for the most important ones. But perhaps we can use that as a quality. The elves could be somewhat uncertain and not keep track of who’s who among Men at all times. Of course not in a comical way.
 
So @Alcarohtar wants to include the Battle of Aglon in 400 F.A. I’m against this because Morgoth underestimates the valor of Men in the Dagor Bragollach, wouldn’t this give the game away? Also, there’s little to no mention of it in the published Silmarillion or any database.
 
Well it could be just one orc army under Boldog testing the siege. It could work. But I can see the point in maintaining the long peace as much as possible until Bragollach.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
So @Alcarohtar wants to include the Battle of Aglon in 400 F.A. I’m against this because Morgoth underestimates the valor of Men in the Dagor Bragollach, wouldn’t this give the game away? Also, there’s little to no mention of it in the published Silmarillion or any database.
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Unlike most of the named battles in Tolkien's histories, this one seems like a relatively small skirmish. It might be possible to squeeze it in as such. It's also possible that Morgoth's intelligence on the encounter is not complete.

Ultimately, it will depend on what the structure of the season looks like.
 
Rhiannon said:
It is not a defined amount of time, but very little in The Silmarillion is. However, I think it suggests that Turgon does not want these lords to be gone long. This may be because they have responsibilities in Gondolin, but Turgon is also quite concerned about the secret of Gondolin being revealed. He mentions also to Aredhel, "I forebode that ill will come of it both to you and to me," and to the lords he sends, "there are many perils in Middle-earth of which the Lady knows nothing." He would want those he sends with Aredhel to be trustworthy enough to keep the secret of Gondolin and wise and strong enough to protect her from these unknown dangers.

While they likely have some duties required of them as lords of their houses, I don't think there would be anything that required them to be there all the time. Their main roles in the books seem to be warriors and military commanders, and Aredhel's journey takes place in peacetime. Plus Aredhel herself is a leader of one of the houses of Gondolin.
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What house does she lead again?
 
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