Concerns about season 5

Octoburn said:
This. Mostly.

I think what I dislike is the lack of ambiguity. If we know that Eilinel is captured or dead, there is no weight behind Sauron's words when he promises to reunite Gorlim with her, and when he tells her that she is dead.

I mean, this really should happen during or right after Bragollach, so I don't think it would really help Sauron's story when this is a section he will actually be very busy.

WHAT IF... so, we will have the Easterlings in close proximity to Dorthonion, so when her people begin to flee, she kind of gets lost in the woods, and then she stumbles into someone she knows,but we don't know who it is (don't see them) or it's an Easterlings we set up earlier as someone she is acquainted with. Then, we don't see her again until the Gorlim episode.

This would work both to show her disappearance, as well as setting up the corruption of the Easterlings, though it won't be revealed fully until Nirnaeth. Is that too early to start showing that? Especially if we hint that Sauron is corrupting men in S5?
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I like this idea better than showing her captured by Sauron; however, I am not sure we need to show what happens to Eilinel at all. There will be a lot happening during the episode(s) about the Dagor Bragollach, and showing the fate of the wife of a hitherto unremarkable member of Barahir's army will likely be a low priority. We could certainly show her getting lost while the remnants of the people of Beor are leaving Dorthonion with Emeldir, but I do not thinks she should be more than an unnamed background character at that point.

If you are looking for ambiguity, I think not showing Eilinel at all beforehand or, again, just as a background character, would be the best. That way, the audience will, like Gorlim, have no idea at all what happened to her. Since I do not think we will be focusing on individual members of Barahir's band in any kind of detail before we actually get to the season on Beren and Luthien, I think Gorlim's longing for Eilinel and his visits to their home will be how her character and their relationship are established.

This might be going too far, but I almost wonder if it would be possible to convey what Gorlim is doing without him explicitly stating to anyone else that he is visiting his home or that his wife is missing. For example, he could sneak out of camp to visit an abandoned building, go inside, and lovingly touch and restore to order items that indicate this was his home and a woman lived there with him. He could even take some token of his wife to keep on his person when he goes back to camp. Gorlim visits the abandoned homestead a couple more times, maybe only gazing at it from a distance, maybe standing in the doorway because he is afraid to enter again. On one visit, he sees a light on in the window and a shadowy figure moving around inside. He stays back, silent, hoping beyond hope. Then, he hears her lament for him. Sauron does not even need to worry about making it sound like Eilinel's voice; Gorlim's wishful imagination does the rest. Gorlim calls out, "Eilinel!" The light goes out, a wolf howls, and Sauron's hunters are upon him.
 
A question for Season 5: what should constitute the Frame? We have our sights set for Aragorn’s meeting Arwen with Beren and Luthien, but what for Season 5? The last meeting of the White Council as if to indicate the scattering of parties?
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
A question for Season 5: what should constitute the Frame? We have our sights set for Aragorn’s meeting Arwen with Beren and Luthien, but what for Season 5? The last meeting of the White Council as if to indicate the scattering of parties?
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I think we first need to answer: What are the major themes for Season 5? The frame should be something that fits with those.
 
Rhiannon said:
I think we first need to answer: What are the major themes for Season 5? The frame should be something that fits with those.
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Well, perhaps nothing lasts forever? We have the Elves learning that Men die without being killed, the first death amongst the Elves in hundreds of years with Aredhel’s death, the seeds of Gondolin’s fall being sown with the lust of Maeglin, and finally the Dagor Bragollach, where the accomplishments of the Noldor start going up in smoke (literally).
 
There are ways to handle anonymous background characters that are very striking and draw the audience's attention to them.

The girl with the red coat in Schindler's List:
(scene contains liquidation of a ghetto and people being murdered)
In a black and white film, any color stands out, obviously. The girl's red coat is the only color on screen, so naturally your eye is drawn to her. You see her wandering the street, alone in the crowd without parents. At first, you see her only from a distance, and then later you get closer up glimpses of her. The little girl seems purposeful, heading somewhere with intent, and the adults around her seem to ignore her. Including...the Nazis with guns. There is a song with lyrics playing over the scene, so very little dialogue (though none is particularly needed to convey what is happening). The only person who seems to mark her progress is the observer on the hill. Then, when he turns away, you see the scene from her point of view. She enters an abandoned building, climbs some stairs, and hides under a bed (presumably...her own bed). The room has already been ransacked, so the scene ends on a note of hope - maybe she is okay? Maybe she has escaped the carnage around her?

And now...the audience cares about her fate. They know what the observer is seeing when the red coat appears on screen once again.


I am not suggesting we film anything in black and white. But I am suggesting that if we want to draw attention to Gorlim's wife in the background of a scene showing the aftermath of the Dagor Bragollach, we likely can. It will matter a lot whether Emeldir's escape from Dorthonion is a Season 5 Episode 13 event, or a Season 6 Episode 1 event.
 
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Could we introduce someone like Gorgol this way, as a background character who dramatically gains prominence for an episode or two?
 
I imagine we will introduce the orc who kills Barahir, and then show Beren kill him to take back the ring.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Could we introduce someone like Gorgol this way, as a background character who dramatically gains prominence for an episode or two?
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It is certainly a technique that we can and have used. For example, in my Season 4 scripts, there are a few characters (Edhellos, Diriel, Elrhun, and Tirwen that I can think of off the top of my head) who appear in a few scenes where they have little or no dialogue before they gain prominence so it doesn't look like they appear out of nowhere.

We could certainly mention that the Gorgul is present if we have a scene before he kills Barahir in which it would be logical that he be present.
 
Rhiannon said:
It is certainly a technique that we can and have used. For example, in my Season 4 scripts, there are a few characters (Edhellos, Diriel, Elrhun, and Tirwen that I can think of off the top of my head) who appear in a few scenes where they have little or no dialogue before they gain prominence so it doesn't look like they appear out of nowhere.

We could certainly mention that the Gorgul is present if we have a scene before he kills Barahir in which it would be logical that he be present.
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He’s likely going to be amongst the Orcs who invade Dorthonion, or someone among the Orcs who Sauron gives orders to. Maybe he kills Bregolas in the Dagor Bragollach?
 
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Rhiannon said:
I think we first need to answer: What are the major themes for Season 5? The frame should be something that fits with those.
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Looking at a timeline of the Third Age, our choice is very limited because there aren’t really any events that would mesh well since we’ve already done the reawakening of Mount Doom.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Looking at a timeline of the Third Age, our choice is very limited because there aren’t really any events that would mesh well since we’ve already done the reawakening of Mount Doom.
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It doesn't necessarily have to be an event that appears on the timeline. The Seven-Year Commemoration didn't really happen, but it is something that could have happened. We could stick with the characters that have appeared in the frame before, or we could make up events that happen in Lothlorien or Gondor or Rohan or anywhere else.
 
Rhiannon said:
It doesn't necessarily have to be an event that appears on the timeline. The Seven-Year Commemoration didn't really happen, but it is something that could have happened. We could stick with the characters that have appeared in the frame before, or we could make up events that happen in Lothlorien or Gondor or Rohan or anywhere else.
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Do you see any common threads for Season 5 as it stands?
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Do you see any common threads for Season 5 as it stands?
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The biggest thread I see is the interactions between Elves and Men. This has the potential to address themes like mortality vs. immortality, fate vs. free will, and different perspectives on memory and time. We may also be showing or discussing the Fall of Man, and the consequences of that could be a theme.

Although a lot of reconciliation went on last season, there will still be tensions between the Houses of the Noldor and the Noldor and Sindar. Eol certainly still hates pretty much all the Noldor except Aredhel. The arrival of Men will only create more tensions between various groups.

The Siege of Angband is still going on and will be pretty effective until the Dagor Bragollach at the end of the season. I liked your suggestion of impermanence, that despite everything the Noldor have worked to build, Morgoth still crushes them (in Fingolfin‘s case, literally).

Another theme could be sowing the seeds of evil. This would include Maeglin, of course; whatever happens with Annael’s treachery; as well as fake Amlach and anything the bad guys do to corrupt Men and turn them against the Elves. It may not all pay off for the bad guys this season, but it will eventually.

In broadest terms, I think Season 5 will probably deal with differences between mortals and immortals and evil triumphant at the end of the season. For the frame, we could keep the mortality vs. immortality theme by showing interactions between Elves and mortals (Bilbo meeting Elves around the Shire, Men in Rivendell, Rohan’s relationship with Lothlorien, Mirkwood Elves and the Woodmen) or different levels of mortality (Gondorians with more or less Numenorian blood, Dunedain vs regular men or Hobbits) or even broaden the theme to differences between groups (any number of stories).

Maybe we could parallel the Dagor Bragollach by showing Barad Dur rebuilt at the end of the frame.
 
I agree that mortality vs immortality will be the great theme, not just Elves trying to understand the mortality and short life span of the Men, but also the Men trying to understand what immortality means and what its drawbacks are (and the Elves will be confronted with these as well). While these stories and issues evolve during the siege, the difference between Men and Elves will be made extremely clear. But the ending of the season in the horrible Dagor Bragollach will ironically show that the immortality of the Elves has its limits.

I like the suggestion about the rebuilding of Barad Dur. By showing that, we could perhaps reduce the amount of time we spend on Angband, and make the veiwers guess that something is going on.
The question is, how far can we stretch the story of the frame? We should include Estel learning his true identity. He then meets Arwen and goes into the wild. Should we include the last meeting of the White Council the year after? Should we even include the re-awakening of Orodruin, yet another year later? It could perhaps work as a Bragollach parallel.
 
Would it be out of line to have the S5 Frame be entirely bad guys within Mordor, culminating with the re-opening of (the) Barad Dur? It would definitely be a left turn.
 
amysrevenge said:
Would it be out of line to have the S5 Frame be entirely bad guys within Mordor, culminating with the re-opening of (the) Barad Dur? It would definitely be a left turn.
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Well, we have three of the Nazgul occupying Dol Guldur about this time.
 
I think it’s a fun idea but it would probably not be as fun in reality. Plus, we’ve said that the less we focus on the bad guys, the better. They tend to become less awesome the more time we give them.
 
I think you're probably right. The frame can be as small as we want, but even a small frame might be too much focus.
 
I know we have all probably more or less assumed that the Beren and Luthien season should have a frame focused on Aragorn and Arwen. We could do that, but we could also begin that story this season (paralleling Aegnor and Andreth) and continue using the same frame story in season six. The Arwen-Aragorn story could then be told in two different colours. The first could be more bleak, touching the tragic destiny of Andreth, while the second has more romantic hope.
 
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