Concerns about season 5

I see, I’m not making myself clear. I’m sorry. I don’t think it’s at all necessary to place Annael or his family close to Tol Sirion. They could live close to Barad Eithel, and I’d actually prefer them to. Some of the enemies should attack Barad Eithel, and the adjacent pass. But Sauron should also make an effort to cross the river and take parts of his armies downstream on the western riverbank, towards Tol Sirion (but close to Barad Eithel!). He could be helped by Annael in doing this.
If Annael’s son is a subordinate of Fingolfin or Fingon, living close to Barad Eithel seems quite natural.
 
I see, I’m not making myself clear. I’m sorry. I don’t think it’s at all necessary to place Annael or his family close to Tol Sirion. They could live close to Barad Eithel, and I’d actually prefer them to. Some of the enemies should attack Barad Eithel, and the adjacent pass. But Sauron should also make an effort to cross the river and take parts of his armies downstream on the western riverbank, towards Tol Sirion (but close to Barad Eithel!). He could be helped by Annael in doing this.
If Annael’s son is a subordinate of Fingolfin or Fingon, living close to Barad Eithel seems quite natural.
I think you’ve won me.

How about this: Sauron has someone (I’m not sure who yet, maybe Gorgol) lead a feint of a (relatively) small party of Orcs against Barad Eithel and has Annael feed false information by overestimating the number of Orcs to keep Fingon distracted, while Sauron and Dragluin lead the main force against Tol Sirion?
 
Last edited:
I think you’ve won me.

How about this: Sauron has someone (I’m not sure who yet, maybe Gorgol) lead a feint of a small party of Orcs against Barad Eithel and has Annael feed false information by overestimating the number of Orcs to keep Fingon distracted, while Sauron and Dragluin lead the main force against Tol Sirion?
Yes maybe that could work. It’s important that it is revealed that he’s betrayed Fingon, and not made a mistake. I forget what was said about his specific kind of treachery - should he be seen being in trance, or should he reveal himself out of guilt?
 
Yes maybe that could work. It’s important that it is revealed that he’s betrayed Fingon, and not made a mistake. I forget what was said about his specific kind of treachery - should he be seen being in trance, or should he reveal himself out of guilt?
I don't think we decided on that. We've suggested that Sauron put some subroutines into him that are activated by proximity with Thurwingwethil, but aside from that, it hasn't been decided on how he's found out or whether or not he reveals himself. Perhaps he reveals himself in the aftermath of the capture of Tol Sirion?

And also, this appears to be my 3000th post.
 
The 'style' of Annael's treachery is that Sauron or Thuringwethil visits him at night, and in a trance, he answers their questions and tells them everything they want to know. It's very much 'bewitched by a vampire' type of stuff - maybe some sleepwalking and carrying out tasks, etc.

Basically, Annael doesn't know he's doing these things. He's 'asleep' while it's all happening and has no recollection afterwards. His treachery is uncovered when someone else overhears one of these debriefing meetings, or watches Annael say/do the treacherous thing he's involved in. He hotly denies it at first, but once the witness says exactly what he said/did, he recognizes that just because he doesn't remember doesn't mean it didn't happen...there are gaps in his memory...uh-oh....what did Sauron do to me?!

As far as when it would be useful to have that come out - Sauron's successful military attack at the end of Season 5 does seem to make sense. But it will really depend upon a lot of other things as to *when* we want to get to the reveal of that storyline.

What we currently have for that storyline is:
Rhogrin/Annael/Díriel as captives in Angband​
Sauron puts spell-of-not-so-bottomless-dread on some elvish captives​
The escape of Rhogrin and Annael and their return to Fingolfin in Mithrim​
Annael is visited by Thuringwethil...oh no, he's a spy! (the audience knows, but Annael and the elves remain ignorant)​
Annael unwittingly helps Angband in some way​
The other elves discover Annael's treachery and reveal it​
Annael realizes he is an unwitting mole and there is nothing he can do to stop this. He chooses exile.​
We will, of course, have to fit that in with the other storylines of Season 5 and determine which stories it intersects with.
 
Did we establish that Dragluin had pups with something?
I don't really get a clear picture of his origins (and I don't have my books at hand). Supposedly, he is of the line of Draugluin - and then we could (but don't have to) show a mother of some kind. But I read online that it is said that he is created by Morgoth, as a defence against Huan. In that case, we perhaps need to let Huan shine a bit more before Carcharoth is created. This wouldn't have to be in season five, but could be in the Dagor Bragollach, I guess. But the Fëanoreans suffer heavy losses and are forced to retreat, so I'm not sure how Huan would have the opportunity to shine or make a huge difference. Then again, things might have gone even worse if it hadn't been for him. Celegorm and Curufin could have died, maybe.
 
I don't really get a clear picture of his origins (and I don't have my books at hand). Supposedly, he is of the line of Draugluin - and then we could (but don't have to) show a mother of some kind. But I read online that it is said that he is created by Morgoth, as a defence against Huan. In that case, we perhaps need to let Huan shine a bit more before Carcharoth is created. This wouldn't have to be in season five, but could be in the Dagor Bragollach, I guess. But the Fëanoreans suffer heavy losses and are forced to retreat, so I'm not sure how Huan would have the opportunity to shine or make a huge difference. Then again, things might have gone even worse if it hadn't been for him. Celegorm and Curufin could have died, maybe.
On his origins: he is one of Dragluin’s line, and Morgoth fed him on Man-flesh and Elf-flesh to make him into the biggest werewolf to live. I would assume that Morgoth infused him with some of his power, since Dragluin and Sauron were not enough on Maiar power, and the fact that Morgoth bred him in a few months at the most; I can’t imagine much more time than that elapsing between hearing of Sauron’s defeat and Beren, Luthien, and Huan reaching Angband.

As for having Huan shine, he must have some deeds of valor to his name, enough that his prophecy is known far and wide.
 
On his origins: he is one of Dragluin’s line, and Morgoth fed him on Man-flesh and Elf-flesh to make him into the biggest werewolf to live. I would assume that Morgoth infused him with some of his power, since Dragluin and Sauron were not enough on Maiar power, and the fact that Morgoth bred him in a few months at the most; I can’t imagine much more time than that elapsing between hearing of Sauron’s defeat and Beren, Luthien, and Huan reaching Angband.

As for having Huan shine, he must have some deeds of valor to his name, enough that his prophecy is known far and wide.
Ok so you're saying that he is born before Sauron is defeated but Morgoth feeds him and makes him really fearsome after the defeat.
 
So we don't really need to introduce Carcharoth in season 5. It can be done in season 6.
 
It doesn’t matter much to me either way. Not really sure I want to see puppy!Carcharoth.
No not a puppy, but we might have to show a young wolf, and Morgoth reacting to the news of Huan defeating Dragluin by grabbing the wolf and..something.
 
Look, I'm sorry but I still don't understand what the problem is with my idea that Annael is involved in Sauron's takeover of Minas Tirith, and I will continue to address this issue until I am convinced.
Your idea for Annael to help with the takeover of Minas Tirith is not a bad idea; I just think that it raises a lot of geographic/logistical questions based on the characters and story we have told so far.

The sudden blitzkrieg attack of the orc armies and the Balrogs and the fire of Angband is Morgoth's master plan, and Sauron isn't involved. We could possibly have an attack on Doriath at some point, but that would be Boldog's attack, and Sauron would have nothing to do with it. The only attack that involves Sauron seriously is the successful attack on Minas Tirith. I can't see why anybody would want to avoid using Annael in connection to that victory. Is it because one wants to use Annael before the Dagor Bragollach? Well - then we would have to accept an attack before the Dagor Bragollach (a period of time that is supposed to be rather peaceful), and a failure at that, and I don't think we want to have Sauron fail at this point.
Personally, I do want Annael's treachery and exile to happen before the Dagor Bragollach. It does not at all need to be connected with a physical attack by Sauron's forces, and, since this is a peaceful time in terms of the siege, the drama surrounding Annael's treachery will be an excellent way to create tension without having to invent an attack.
 
On his origins: he is one of Dragluin’s line, and Morgoth fed him on Man-flesh and Elf-flesh to make him into the biggest werewolf to live. I would assume that Morgoth infused him with some of his power, since Dragluin and Sauron were not enough on Maiar power, and the fact that Morgoth bred him in a few months at the most; I can’t imagine much more time than that elapsing between hearing of Sauron’s defeat and Beren, Luthien, and Huan reaching Angband.

As for having Huan shine, he must have some deeds of valor to his name, enough that his prophecy is known far and wide.
No not a puppy, but we might have to show a young wolf, and Morgoth reacting to the news of Huan defeating Dragluin by grabbing the wolf and..something.
I believe Huan did some deeds of valor in the Dagor-nuin-giliath, but no one has explicitly brought up the prophecy yet. This may be something we want to retroactively add to earlier seasons, or we may want to bring it up in Season 5 or 6.

I don't think we necessarily need to show Carcharoth before Beren and Luthien encounter him guarding the gates of Angband; however, we should somehow make clear that Morgoth turned him into the greatest wolf ever because he knew the prophecy about Huan and that Sauron did not know about Carcharoth when he decided to shape-shift into a wolf. We could do this by showing some combination of the creation of Carcharoth, Morgoth making the decision to turn him into the greatest wolf, Morgoth hearing the prophecy or revealing that he knows of it, and/or the good guys talking about Carcharoth and drawing conclusions. It depends on how much we trust the viewers to figure about Carcharoth's purpose on their own.
 
Your idea for Annael to help with the takeover of Minas Tirith is not a bad idea; I just think that it raises a lot of geographic/logistical questions based on the characters and story we have told so far.


Personally, I do want Annael's treachery and exile to happen before the Dagor Bragollach. It does not at all need to be connected with a physical attack by Sauron's forces, and, since this is a peaceful time in terms of the siege, the drama surrounding Annael's treachery will be an excellent way to create tension without having to invent an attack.
Unless the lack of tension is a reason for why Fingolfin proposes an assault on Angband believing that the Noldor are strong enough?
 
Unless the lack of tension is a reason for why Fingolfin proposes an assault on Angband believing that the Noldor are strong enough?
But that will not happen until towards the end of the season, and we don't want the audience to get bored in the meantime.
 
Back
Top