Flammifer
Well-Known Member
Well Beech27, that reading is possible. However, I think there are other possible and valid readings.
Start with Faramir saying, "And this I remember of Boromir as a boy, when we together learned the tale of our sires and the history of our city, that it always displeased him that his father was not king. 'How many hundreds of years needs it to make a steward a king, if the king returns not?' He asked. 'Few years, maybe, in places of less royalty," my father answered. 'In Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice.'"
So, from this passage we learn that Boromir and Faramir were instructed in the history of the city. And that their instructor (or one of their instructors) was Denethor.
Faramir again: "We in the house of Denethor know much ancient lore by long tradition, and there are moreover in our treasuries many things preserved: books and tablets writ on withered parchments, yea, and on stone and on leaves of silver and of gold, in diverse characters. Some none can now read; and for the rest, few ever unlock them. I can read a little in them, for I have had teaching. It was these records that brought the Grey Pilgrim to us. I first saw him when I was a child, and he has been twice or thrice since then."
Here we learn that the House of Denethor was expected to know much ancient lore, and to study archives and even to learn to read some of the obscure languages. Faramir has had teaching. That teaching did not likely come from Gandalf, as he has only been to Minas Tirith two or three times since Faramir was a child (according to Faramir, and one of those times was when he found Isildur's scroll when he certainly didn't take the time to teach Faramir anything, and may not have even met him), so it seems unlikely (and is not mentioned) that Faramir learned much from, or studied much with Gandalf. He probably had teachers, and it seems he and Boromir were taught directly by Denethor.
Faramir does say that he learned 'a little' from Gandalf, "He got leave of Denethor, how I do not know, to look at the secrets of our treasury, and I learned a little of him, when he would teach (and that was seldom)."
It is right after Faramir says that he learned a little from Gandalf, that he brings up, "But this much I learned, or guessed, and I have kept it ever secret in my heart since: that Isildur took somewhat from the hand of the Unnamed."
So, your reading that he learned this from Gandalf, or guessed it from something that Gandalf said, is certainly possible. But, bear in mind, that you are inferring this reading from the close proximity of the two paragraphs. It is actually never said that Faramir learned or guessed this from Gandalf. It is certainly possible that he learned or guessed it from Denethor.
There is a pattern of unconfirmed insinuations, that are never stated, which lead the reader to infer things, in almost all descriptions of Denethor.
It starts back at the council of Elrond. Gandalf guesses that none save Saruman and himself have read the scroll. The reader infers that this indicates that Denethor is vaingloriously boasting that he knows all in the archives about the City. Gandalf states that there are scrolls in the archive that none can now read. The reader infers that this means that again Denethor is vaingloriously boasting about knowing all in the archives. However Denethor did not say that he knew all in the archives, just all about the founding of the City. By placing Gandalf's comment about stuff in the archive that no one now can read in the paragraph just before talking about finding Isildur's scroll, the reader infers that Isildur's scroll is written in one of those languages. But this is never stated.
Indeed, I find it unlikely that Isildur's scroll is one of those written in obscure language or script. I agree with the class, that it was likely written in Adunaic, and I think that that was an important enough language to Numenoreans that there are still scholars (and perhaps Denethor) in Gondor who can read it.
The records written in languages or scripts which cannot now be read, and, some of which according to Faramir, are written on stone, on leaves of silver and gold, as well as on withered parchments, are more likely to include: Lots in the Black Speech, plundered from Barad-Dur after Sauron was defeated, and before Barad-Dur was torn down. Records from the Dark Years, when Sauron ruled much of Middle Earth (including much of what later would become Gondor, inhabited in part, presumably, by those who would become The Dead). Records from the archives of Umbar and Pelagir, when they were Numenorean colonies, collected through trade or plunder, in lost languages of the East and South.
Anyway, what I am pointing out, is that many of the things which the reader infers or assumes in passages about Denethor, are not actually stated. Furthermore, this is so common a pattern (induced inference), that I think Gandalf and JRRT are doing it deliberately.
Why?
Now, interpreting the text in line with the assumptions and inferences is a perfectly valid reading. I'm not saying that it is not. I am, however, pointing out that close reading reveals that it is not a fully supported reading. That it is based on inference and assumption. So, there are other possible readings that are also valid. I think that is an interesting observation.
I wonder why?
Start with Faramir saying, "And this I remember of Boromir as a boy, when we together learned the tale of our sires and the history of our city, that it always displeased him that his father was not king. 'How many hundreds of years needs it to make a steward a king, if the king returns not?' He asked. 'Few years, maybe, in places of less royalty," my father answered. 'In Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice.'"
So, from this passage we learn that Boromir and Faramir were instructed in the history of the city. And that their instructor (or one of their instructors) was Denethor.
Faramir again: "We in the house of Denethor know much ancient lore by long tradition, and there are moreover in our treasuries many things preserved: books and tablets writ on withered parchments, yea, and on stone and on leaves of silver and of gold, in diverse characters. Some none can now read; and for the rest, few ever unlock them. I can read a little in them, for I have had teaching. It was these records that brought the Grey Pilgrim to us. I first saw him when I was a child, and he has been twice or thrice since then."
Here we learn that the House of Denethor was expected to know much ancient lore, and to study archives and even to learn to read some of the obscure languages. Faramir has had teaching. That teaching did not likely come from Gandalf, as he has only been to Minas Tirith two or three times since Faramir was a child (according to Faramir, and one of those times was when he found Isildur's scroll when he certainly didn't take the time to teach Faramir anything, and may not have even met him), so it seems unlikely (and is not mentioned) that Faramir learned much from, or studied much with Gandalf. He probably had teachers, and it seems he and Boromir were taught directly by Denethor.
Faramir does say that he learned 'a little' from Gandalf, "He got leave of Denethor, how I do not know, to look at the secrets of our treasury, and I learned a little of him, when he would teach (and that was seldom)."
It is right after Faramir says that he learned a little from Gandalf, that he brings up, "But this much I learned, or guessed, and I have kept it ever secret in my heart since: that Isildur took somewhat from the hand of the Unnamed."
So, your reading that he learned this from Gandalf, or guessed it from something that Gandalf said, is certainly possible. But, bear in mind, that you are inferring this reading from the close proximity of the two paragraphs. It is actually never said that Faramir learned or guessed this from Gandalf. It is certainly possible that he learned or guessed it from Denethor.
There is a pattern of unconfirmed insinuations, that are never stated, which lead the reader to infer things, in almost all descriptions of Denethor.
It starts back at the council of Elrond. Gandalf guesses that none save Saruman and himself have read the scroll. The reader infers that this indicates that Denethor is vaingloriously boasting that he knows all in the archives about the City. Gandalf states that there are scrolls in the archive that none can now read. The reader infers that this means that again Denethor is vaingloriously boasting about knowing all in the archives. However Denethor did not say that he knew all in the archives, just all about the founding of the City. By placing Gandalf's comment about stuff in the archive that no one now can read in the paragraph just before talking about finding Isildur's scroll, the reader infers that Isildur's scroll is written in one of those languages. But this is never stated.
Indeed, I find it unlikely that Isildur's scroll is one of those written in obscure language or script. I agree with the class, that it was likely written in Adunaic, and I think that that was an important enough language to Numenoreans that there are still scholars (and perhaps Denethor) in Gondor who can read it.
The records written in languages or scripts which cannot now be read, and, some of which according to Faramir, are written on stone, on leaves of silver and gold, as well as on withered parchments, are more likely to include: Lots in the Black Speech, plundered from Barad-Dur after Sauron was defeated, and before Barad-Dur was torn down. Records from the Dark Years, when Sauron ruled much of Middle Earth (including much of what later would become Gondor, inhabited in part, presumably, by those who would become The Dead). Records from the archives of Umbar and Pelagir, when they were Numenorean colonies, collected through trade or plunder, in lost languages of the East and South.
Anyway, what I am pointing out, is that many of the things which the reader infers or assumes in passages about Denethor, are not actually stated. Furthermore, this is so common a pattern (induced inference), that I think Gandalf and JRRT are doing it deliberately.
Why?
Now, interpreting the text in line with the assumptions and inferences is a perfectly valid reading. I'm not saying that it is not. I am, however, pointing out that close reading reveals that it is not a fully supported reading. That it is based on inference and assumption. So, there are other possible readings that are also valid. I think that is an interesting observation.
I wonder why?
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