Denethor'sKnowledge

Well Beech27, that reading is possible. However, I think there are other possible and valid readings.

Start with Faramir saying, "And this I remember of Boromir as a boy, when we together learned the tale of our sires and the history of our city, that it always displeased him that his father was not king. 'How many hundreds of years needs it to make a steward a king, if the king returns not?' He asked. 'Few years, maybe, in places of less royalty," my father answered. 'In Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice.'"

So, from this passage we learn that Boromir and Faramir were instructed in the history of the city. And that their instructor (or one of their instructors) was Denethor.

Faramir again: "We in the house of Denethor know much ancient lore by long tradition, and there are moreover in our treasuries many things preserved: books and tablets writ on withered parchments, yea, and on stone and on leaves of silver and of gold, in diverse characters. Some none can now read; and for the rest, few ever unlock them. I can read a little in them, for I have had teaching. It was these records that brought the Grey Pilgrim to us. I first saw him when I was a child, and he has been twice or thrice since then."

Here we learn that the House of Denethor was expected to know much ancient lore, and to study archives and even to learn to read some of the obscure languages. Faramir has had teaching. That teaching did not likely come from Gandalf, as he has only been to Minas Tirith two or three times since Faramir was a child (according to Faramir, and one of those times was when he found Isildur's scroll when he certainly didn't take the time to teach Faramir anything, and may not have even met him), so it seems unlikely (and is not mentioned) that Faramir learned much from, or studied much with Gandalf. He probably had teachers, and it seems he and Boromir were taught directly by Denethor.

Faramir does say that he learned 'a little' from Gandalf, "He got leave of Denethor, how I do not know, to look at the secrets of our treasury, and I learned a little of him, when he would teach (and that was seldom)."

It is right after Faramir says that he learned a little from Gandalf, that he brings up, "But this much I learned, or guessed, and I have kept it ever secret in my heart since: that Isildur took somewhat from the hand of the Unnamed."

So, your reading that he learned this from Gandalf, or guessed it from something that Gandalf said, is certainly possible. But, bear in mind, that you are inferring this reading from the close proximity of the two paragraphs. It is actually never said that Faramir learned or guessed this from Gandalf. It is certainly possible that he learned or guessed it from Denethor.

There is a pattern of unconfirmed insinuations, that are never stated, which lead the reader to infer things, in almost all descriptions of Denethor.

It starts back at the council of Elrond. Gandalf guesses that none save Saruman and himself have read the scroll. The reader infers that this indicates that Denethor is vaingloriously boasting that he knows all in the archives about the City. Gandalf states that there are scrolls in the archive that none can now read. The reader infers that this means that again Denethor is vaingloriously boasting about knowing all in the archives. However Denethor did not say that he knew all in the archives, just all about the founding of the City. By placing Gandalf's comment about stuff in the archive that no one now can read in the paragraph just before talking about finding Isildur's scroll, the reader infers that Isildur's scroll is written in one of those languages. But this is never stated.

Indeed, I find it unlikely that Isildur's scroll is one of those written in obscure language or script. I agree with the class, that it was likely written in Adunaic, and I think that that was an important enough language to Numenoreans that there are still scholars (and perhaps Denethor) in Gondor who can read it.

The records written in languages or scripts which cannot now be read, and, some of which according to Faramir, are written on stone, on leaves of silver and gold, as well as on withered parchments, are more likely to include: Lots in the Black Speech, plundered from Barad-Dur after Sauron was defeated, and before Barad-Dur was torn down. Records from the Dark Years, when Sauron ruled much of Middle Earth (including much of what later would become Gondor, inhabited in part, presumably, by those who would become The Dead). Records from the archives of Umbar and Pelagir, when they were Numenorean colonies, collected through trade or plunder, in lost languages of the East and South.

Anyway, what I am pointing out, is that many of the things which the reader infers or assumes in passages about Denethor, are not actually stated. Furthermore, this is so common a pattern (induced inference), that I think Gandalf and JRRT are doing it deliberately.

Why?

Now, interpreting the text in line with the assumptions and inferences is a perfectly valid reading. I'm not saying that it is not. I am, however, pointing out that close reading reveals that it is not a fully supported reading. That it is based on inference and assumption. So, there are other possible readings that are also valid. I think that is an interesting observation.

I wonder why?
 
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Flammifer, I notice that you are doing that which you so often caution against: using material written after the publication of the text to guide the interpretation of the text in question.

Where in the published text does it state that Gandalf only visited Minas Tirith three or four times from Faramir's childhood onward?

I agree that Denethor doesn't need to be making vainglorious boasts about his knowledge of the contents of the archives regarding the founding of the city; As the scroll in question dates from around 120 years following the founding of the city, it doesn't fall into that category.

It also doesn't mean that Denethor need be familiar with the scroll at all, nor that Faramir learnt anything of its content from Denethor.
 
Hi Anthony,

If anywhere in the material published after TLOTR it says that Gandalf only visited Minas Tirith two or three times (not three or four) since Faramir's childhood, I know it not.

However, in the published text it certainly says that. Or rather, Faramir says that in 'The Window on the West' in 'The Two Towers'. "It was these records that brought the Grey Pilgrim to us. I first saw him when I was a child, and he has been twice or thrice since then."

You are right that there is no evidence other than his own comment, that Denethor is familiar with the scroll. However, there is his own comment. There is also no evidence that Denethor is not familiar with the scroll. You are right that there is no direct evidence that Faramir learned anything of it's content from Denethor, however, Faramir learned or guessed something, and he might have learned it or guessed it from something Denethor said as easily as from something that Gandalf said.

I do not insist on a reading that Denethor read the scroll. The common inference is a valid reading. However, it is not a fully supported reading. Close reading reveals that it is based on inference and assumption, rather than on statements in the text.

This means that there are other valid possible readings. I suggest that a reading that Denethor was not vaingloriously boasting is also a valid reading. The inferences and assumptions about Denethor from Gandalf's comments are possibly insinuated by Gandalf (or JRRT). Careful reading should tell us that these inferences are not really supported by textual statements. Of course, our inferences and assumptions could still be correct (as there are also not direct textual statements refuting them), but, we should be wary. We should consider that alternative readings (that Denethor had read the scroll for example) are just as valid interpretations.
 
There is evidence that Denethor isn’t familiar with the scroll, though. Quite a bit of it—if not an omniscient narrator declaring it so.

We have, of course, Gandalf’s comment.

We have Boromir’s ignorance of the Ring.

We have Faramir linking his ring-guess with Gandalf’s inquiry.

We also know that the variable in Faramir’s education is Gandalf. If he and Boromir were educated by their father and the same lore masters, but Faramir had one extra (albeit occasional) teacher, then it follows that this person is responsible for the lore Faramir knows that Boromir does not.

We have the motif of Gondor’s waning in all respects—including lore.

We have what we will come to learn of Denethor, and what we already know about Gandalf. They are not equally credible witnesses.

We lack irrefutable proof that he doesn’t know it; but it is famously difficult to prove a negative. It’s not as if Gandalf can ask him.

I think, given this and the myriad arguments presented in the thread, that the text does support the reading that Denethor was ignorant regarding this piece of lore. I think a close reading reaffirms it. Implicit truths are no less true than explicit.

The only counter argument present in the text is Denethor’s own statement, which I frankly don’t find compelling.

It’s not that I’ve failed to consider the possibility that Denethor’s statement could be true—it certainly could be. It is simply that, the more I consider it, the less likely that seems. Further, I find that if I accept his statement as true, it doesn’t square with the rest of the story, his characterization, or Gandalf’s.

That is, the value of a close reading is in seeing precisely what the text says, how it says it, and what it says by saying it. An author using a credible protagonist and other hints to make us feel a certain way about a character we’ve yet to meet is as old as the novel itself—older, really. A close reading shows precisely how the author does this, but seeing the strings is no less reason to believe in the truth presented. And in fact Gandalf’s implications about Denethor do prove true.

So, why does Tolkien not make it explicit? Why doesn’t Gandalf offer concrete proof that Denethor’s statement was wrong?

First, it’s a hard thing to be sure about. How can you prove what someone doesn’t know without asking them, or testing them in a way that would reveal more than Gandalf safely can?

Second, Tolkien gets to make his foreshadowing subtler than it otherwise would be. He makes us doubt a pending, tragic antagonist before we meet them. This is effective writing. If he makes us doubt him wrongly—that is, if Denethor is correct—then Tolkien has mislead us. That too is a worthy technique in the novelist’s box, but would strike me as poorly deployed in this case. What would Tolkien accomplish by making Gandalf wrong or deceitful here? What would he accomplish by making us unfairly biased against Denethor?

Third, novelists revealing truth via context and implication encourages a closer reading than if every relevant truth were presented such that it could not possibly be doubted.

All of that having been said, if your point is just that Denethor could be right, and we should consider the possibility, I think that’s valuable, and we’ve all given that possibility due consideration. But, after careful consideration, there’s nothing at all wrong with dismissing an idea as unlikely and incongruent with the text.
 
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Yes, we have a number of inducements to infer bad things about Denethor.

However, none of them are particularly strong.

Boromir and Faramir are both ignorant about Isildur taking the Ring. Denethor might not be. However, if he had read the scroll, he might not attach much importance to it. The Ring is gone. (Saruman might even have confirmed this to him.) It is of no relevance today. Not something of great importance to the Lore of the City.

Faramir does not really link his guess about Isildur taking something from Sauron with Gandalf. The two are in different paragraphs. Sure, they are proximate paragraphs.

The variable in Boromir and Faramir's education was not (or not only) Gandalf. The obvious variable was temperament. Faramir loved the study of lore whereas Boromir did not. Not surprising that Faramir picked up more than Boromir.

I don't see what Gondor's waning has to do with this question, unless it might imply that Adunaic had become forgotten in Gondor. Which I doubt.

Gandalf and Denethor are not equally credible witnesses. But only one of them is a witness. Denethor states that he knows all in the archives about the lore of the City. That is a witness statement. Gandalf does not witness anything (except that there are records in the archive that none now can read). Gandalf guesses. That is not witness. Furthermore, Gandalf does not need to say anything about Denethor at this point. He is going out of his way to denigrate Denethor. So, he has a motive to insinuate things that he does not have evidence to support. He is insinuating things that he has no evidence to support. (Gandalf has no real way to know whether Denethor is familiar with the scroll or not, and he never says that Denethor is not. He just insinuates.) Also, although we learn that Denethor is a shady character, do we ever see him lying, or vaingloriously boasting? Just because Denethor has his flaws, does not imply that he is not truthful and accurate.

Meanwhile, Gandalf has previously made inconsistent and hyperbolic statements to create an effect. One example:, to Frodo in 'Shadows of the Past": "You see? Already you too, Frodo, cannot easily let it go, nor will to damage it. And I could not 'make' you - except by force, which would break your mind." This is strange, since the most relevant comparison is with Bilbo giving up the Ring. He also could not easily let it go. Gandalf had to become 'forceful'. But he did not have to use force. And it didn't break Bilbo's mind. So, Gandalf is quite likely to go beyond the evidence into hyperbole and exaggeration when it serves his purpose of the moment.

I think it is a stretch to say that accepting Gandalf insinuations is more trustworthy than accepting Denethor statements (particularly at this point in the text for the first-time reader, when little is known about Denethor).

So, in summary, although we can read the text as Gandalf's insinuations encourage us to. And that is a valid reading. I think a careful reading should cause us to think: "That reading is based on inference and assumption. Those inferences and assumptions seem to be induced or encouraged by Gandalf. Why? Why is Gandalf even mentioning Denethor at all? Why is Gandalf going out of his way to denigrate Denithor?
Is Gandalf going beyond his evidence deliberately to denigrate Denethor?

The class wrestled with the question of why Gandalf was denigrating Denethor, and failed to come up with a conclusion.

It's certainly a good question. And it's a question that the reader might well not ask, unless they realize that there is a reading in which the whole case against Denethor is built on induced inferences, that might not be supported in reality.
 
Faramir links his guess to Gandalf in the sentence right after he reveals it. He guesses that Isildur took something; he guesses that this was Gandalf’s inquiry. The link here is either significant or misleading.

There are numerous reasons why Tolkien, via Gandalf, might denigrate Denethor in this context.

Again, foreshadowing an antagonist is a very common literary technique. Denethor will primarily be an antagonist because of despair induced by wrongly held certainty. We see both on display here. Hence, effective foreshadowing.

And it’s not as if taking subtle digs at Gondor would be out of step for the Wise at this council. Whether they ought is a fair question; but it’s clear enough they either can’t help themselves, or more likely, think there’s value in doing so.

These possibilities square comfortably with the text.

But say Denethor is right, and Gandalf has unfairly maligned him.

Why would he do that? Moreover, why would Tolkien do that? Do you suspect he intends Gandalf be less heroic, and Denethor more wise? It’s possible, of course, but again seems incongruous.
 
Hi Beech27,

In the following sentence, Faramir links his guess to answering why Gandalf was eager for stories of Isildur, not to Gandalf being the source of the guess. In fact, Faramir's use of the past tense, "Here I thought was the answer to Mithrandir's questioning." indicates that Faramir had learned or guessed this supposition before he observed Gandalf's questions and research. If so, it suggests that Gandalf could not have been the source of Faramir's guess. If not Gandalf, who? Most likely Denethor? Where could Denethor have picked up this knowledge? Most likely the very scroll in question?

So, that's a bunch of suppositions, but it is at least partially supported by, and not contradicted by, the evidence.

Totally agree with you, that foreshadowing is a common technique, and one greatly loved by JRRT. I'm sure that part of denigrating Denethor is foreshadowing. However that foreshadowing is independent of whether Gandalf is correct in his guess or not, as long as readers make the intended inference.

Your last question is a very good question. Why would Gandalf unfairly malign Denethor? However, we don't even need to get into the debate about whether Denethor had or had not read the scroll, to ask an essentially similar question. Why would Gandalf malign Denethor even fairly? Why would Gandalf bring Denethor up at all?

The class was baffled by why Gandalf wants to malign Denethor. Many suggestions were raised, but no conclusions were drawn. I also have suggestions but no conclusions. Perhaps Gandalf wants to subtly suggest that Denethor should not be fully trusted? Suggest to whom? Frodo? Possible. Boromir? Possible. Aragorn? Possible but unlikely to be necessary as Aragorn is familiar with Denethor. However, such warnings could more safely be given in private rather than in public. Denigrating Denethor in public certainly risks antagonizing Boromir.

It is obvious that Gandalf wants to malign Denethor. Though it is hard to see why. I don't put it past Gandalf to do so 'unfairly' by insinuating inferences that he cannot substantiate. Gandalf is not a tame Wizard!
 
If I seem fixated on the question of whether Denethor knows of the scroll or its lore, it’s primarily because that was essentially the original question in this thread. Further, I think it does matter if Gandalf actually believes Denethor is wrong. It’s one thing to make mistaken inferences, quite another to lead others down that path deceitfully. I agree that Gandalf is not tame—he can be angry, petty, etc.—but I still find this a step too far.

In any case, I maintain—for the reasons well litigated by now—that Denethor probably didn’t know, and Gandalf’s inference was right.

But as you say, whether he thinks it or not, he certainly doesn’t need to bring it up. Indeed the class didn’t settle on a perfect reason why he should have. I think this is because there is no one perfect reason—but there are many imperfect ones. We may even say Gandalf makes a tactical mistake here. As you’ve noted elsewhere, the Council is not overly polite to or regarding Gondor. Maybe they ought to have been more careful.

So, it may well be the case that Gandalf simply does not like Denethor, and is being a little petty here. It may be he grows irritated with Boromir, and this is a chance to snipe at him.

It may instead be that he truly believes the Council and/or Boromir need to be warned of Denethor’s myopia and arrogance, relative to his wisdom.

Probably, I think, it’s a bit of all of that, and more besides. Gandalf believes things about Denethor we will come to see are true; he opts to be less diplomatic than he could be, since Denethor and Boromir have irked him.

I think it’s much more clear what Tolkien is doing here. He chooses Gandalf to do it because we trust him and know his temperament. It is true that an author may use these traits to mislead readers and other characters; I simply think that would do damage to Gandalf’s character and fail to square with the rest of the story.
 
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One thing I find interesting is that Denethor will later criticise Faramir calling him a Wizard's pupil, but it seems to me that Denethor himself has been significantly affected by Saruman. He holds Saruman in high regard as a researcher at least.

If Gandalf believes that Saruman can unduly affect Denethor, then Denethor might be the target of reflected despite; guilt by association.
 
That’s a good point, @Anthony Lawther

I would only add that Appendix A offers this additional context regarding the shared history of Gandalf, Denethor, Saruman, and Aragorn:

“Thorongil often warned Ecthelion not to put trust in Saruman the White in Isengard, but to welcome rather Gandalf the Grey. But there was little love between Denethor and Gandalf; and after the days of Ecthelion there was less welcome for the Grey Pilgrim in Minas Tirith. Therefore later, when all was made clear, many believed that Denethor, who was subtle in mind and looked further and deeper than other men of his day, had discovered who this stranger Thorongil in truth was, and suspected that he and Mithrandir designed to supplant him.”

Of course it’s worth noting that Denethor’s suspicions are not wholly wrong—but neither are they wholly right. Gandalf and Aragorn didn’t then and don’t now seek to replace him as Steward so much as they seek to fulfill the ultimate task of the role. This is, I think, why he’s a compelling and tragic figure. Denethor is generationally wise and great; but he lacks the ability to see the limits of his great wisdom, or to accept a future in which he or his line are diminished.
 
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