Flammifer
Well-Known Member
Speculation again! Last class, there was discussion on whether Boromir passed through Bree on his way to Rivendell. There is not much evidence, but we can still speculate about the possibility, and, if he did, when might he have been there.
There are many possibilities. Here are some speculations, supported (thinly) by logic, and (even more thinly) by some sketchy evidence. There are certainly many more speculations about Boromir’s journey that might be just as possible.
What is known: Boromir went from Minas Tirith into Eriador via the Gap of Rohan. He then reached Tharbad, where he lost his horse fording the Greyflood. The journey from Minas Tirith to Rivendell took 110 days.
Initial thoughts:
Assumptions: We know that Boromir has made extensive study of old battles, probably including the Battle of the Last Alliance. We guess that there are old maps of Eriador to be found in the archives of Minas Tirith. Boromir is an experienced general, who understands maps and the value of knowing terrain. We can assume he will have studied (and carried) maps of Eriador. It is likely that those maps will show the lands and territories of the kingdom (kingdoms?) of Arnor, the main geographical features of Eriador, and the main roads that existed when the maps were made. We can assume that Boromir did not find any maps which showed the location of Imladris (or he would not have gone to Tharbad, or, if he did, he would not be crossing the Greyflood).
Conclusion: Either Boromir is heading for the Ered Luin, or he is heading on up the Greenway for baffling reasons.
Assumption: If Boromir is heading for the Ered Luin, then from his maps, and from intelligence gathered in Tharbad, he is probably aware that his best route is to go up the Greenway until the road branches. Thence westerly, to cross the Brandywine at Sarn Ford, thence due west to the Ered Luin. If Boromir does not have an Ered Luin theory, then why is he crossing the Greyflood to go north up the Greenway? Where does he think he is going?
So, let’s stick with the Ered Luin speculation. Boromir, now on foot, heads towards Sarn Ford, and then towards the Ered Luin. This would explain why his journey took 110 days. Assume he reaches the Ered Luin, and begins exploring, looking for promising dales, or for intelligence. Assume that he gets intelligence, indicating that he is in the wrong place, on the wrong side of Eriador. Who could he have got such intelligence from? Possibly Dwarves, and possibly Elves. But let’s assume that he does get this unwelcome intelligence.
Now Boromir has a long way to go. Still, not so long as the distance from Minas Tirith to Tharbad. There are various ways he could travel: 1. Back past Sarn Ford to the Greenway, up the Greenway to Bree, east on the Dwarf Road. 2. Back past Sarn Ford, cut south of the South Downs, thence to the Last Bridge over the Hoarwell, avoiding Bree. 3. Head east, or north east, aiming to pick up the Dwarf Road near Michel Delving, thence east to Bree, through the Shire. 4. Head further northeast passing north of the Shire until hitting the Greenway between Bree and Fornorst, thence south to Bree.
There are not any good ways to head for Rivendell bypassing Bree to the north. There is a possible route bypassing Bree to the south. But, most routes from the Ered Luin to Rivendell lead through Bree, with the added incentive of probably being able to re-supply there.
Of course, if we discount the Ered Luin supposition, then Boromir would have just headed up the Greenway until he reached Bree (though hard to know why his journey would have then taken 110 days, and hard to know why he is avoiding Mountains and likely ‘dale’ locations).
So, there are many speculative routes Boromir could have taken from Tharbad to Rivendell, but, once he crossed the Greyflood, it is highly likely that he would have passed through Bree at some time.
So, if we assume that Boromir did pass through Bree, when?
What we know: We know that Boromir arrived in Rivendell at night on the 24th of October. That is 4 days after Frodo arrives in Rivendell, on the night of the 20th. Aragorn and the Hobbits have taken 21 days to travel from Bree to Rivendell. They are on foot, but have largely avoided the road, in favor of concealment in the hills.
Assumptions: Assume that Boromir gets re-supplied in Bree. He probably has gold (in his belt, purse, and boots) as an experienced campaigner would know enough to not keep all his resources on the horse that perished in the Greyflood. Even if out of money, Boromir is authoritative enough, confident enough, lordly enough, intimidating enough, persuasive enough, charming enough, to get re-supplied by one means or another in Bree. But, assume he cannot acquire a horse. (Barliman had a hard enough time finding a pack pony for the Hobbits). Boromir is on foot, with a fairly heavy pack. Still, he has been long delayed, so is pushing hard. He is very strong and fit. He is travelling on the road. He must be much faster than the Hobbits from Bree to the Ford of Bruinen. He might take some time to find Rivendell from the Ford of Bruinen, as the route is concealed, and not obvious. It could have taken him longer to find Rivendell from the Ford than it took Glorfindel, Aragorn and Hobbits. It took them only hours to get from the Ford (which they reached in the late afternoon of the 20th) to Rivendell (which they reached in the night of the 20th). (It also took Gandalf the Dwarves, and Bilbo, only hours to reach Rivendell from the Ford, as they crossed the Ford after noon, and arrived at Rivendell just as twilight faded into night, sometime in early June.)
Assume it takes Boromir 14-16 days from Bree to the Ford, and 1-3 days Ford to Rivendell.
I don’t think that Boromir arrived at the Ford earlier than Frodo, as he would have presumably got tangled up with Black Riders along the way.
I think the earliest he could have reached the Ford would be the day after Frodo, and possibly two or three days after Frodo reached the Ford. So, if he reached the Ford on the 21st, 22nd, or 23rd, then he might have left Bree between the 7th and the 9th, and arrived in Bree between the 4th and the 7th.
So, if Boromir came to Rivendell via Bree, it is likely that he arrived in Bree about 3-6 days after Gandalf left Bree, 4-7 days after the Hobbits left Bree.
Of course, he would have stayed at the Prancing Pony. Probably for 2 nights.
Conclusion: I think it is probable (though not certain) that Boromir passed through Bree on his way to Imladris. Possibly after a long detour towards the Ered Luin (though there are other possible explanations for the duration of his journey).
Inclinations favoring going through Bree: Once Boromir crossed the Greyflood, most routes (though not all) to Rivendell would go through Bree. Bree would be a good place for Boromir to re-supply.
Inclinations against going through Bree: At the start of the Council of Elrond, Boromir, ‘gazed at Frodo and Bilbo with sudden wonder’. If he had gone through Bree, he should have seen ‘halflings’ there. Would his ‘wonder’ at seeing Frodo and Bilbo have been so ‘sudden’ if he had seen Hobbits before?
Any other speculations on whether Boromir passed through Bree?
There are many possibilities. Here are some speculations, supported (thinly) by logic, and (even more thinly) by some sketchy evidence. There are certainly many more speculations about Boromir’s journey that might be just as possible.
What is known: Boromir went from Minas Tirith into Eriador via the Gap of Rohan. He then reached Tharbad, where he lost his horse fording the Greyflood. The journey from Minas Tirith to Rivendell took 110 days.
Initial thoughts:
- Via Tharbad is not the most direct route from the Gap to Rivendell. Elrond, Gandalf, Hobbits and company (who know the way) just go north and slightly east from the Gap, up the west side of the Misty Mountains, returning from the War of the Ring. They take 28 days to make the trip mounted. But only 21 days of travel time, as they spend 7 days camped on the western side of the Mountains, saying farewell to Celeborn and Galadriel. Assumption: Boromir does not know where Imladris is, nor the best way to get there. He has gone too far west and is not on the best route.
- From Tharbad, the best way to get to Rivendell is to go northeast, up the left bank of the Greyflood, Hoarwell, and Loudwater. No need to cross the Greyflood. Assumption: Boromir has not found good directions in or before Tharbad. He is heading across the Greyflood.
- Why is Boromir crossing the Greyflood? Where is he planning to go once across? Assumption: He is planning to continue on north up the Greenway (Old North Road). However, this does not lead to anywhere near a likely ‘dale’, as these are found in mountains, and the road goes as far from mountains as is possible in Eriador. So, why?
Assumptions: We know that Boromir has made extensive study of old battles, probably including the Battle of the Last Alliance. We guess that there are old maps of Eriador to be found in the archives of Minas Tirith. Boromir is an experienced general, who understands maps and the value of knowing terrain. We can assume he will have studied (and carried) maps of Eriador. It is likely that those maps will show the lands and territories of the kingdom (kingdoms?) of Arnor, the main geographical features of Eriador, and the main roads that existed when the maps were made. We can assume that Boromir did not find any maps which showed the location of Imladris (or he would not have gone to Tharbad, or, if he did, he would not be crossing the Greyflood).
Conclusion: Either Boromir is heading for the Ered Luin, or he is heading on up the Greenway for baffling reasons.
Assumption: If Boromir is heading for the Ered Luin, then from his maps, and from intelligence gathered in Tharbad, he is probably aware that his best route is to go up the Greenway until the road branches. Thence westerly, to cross the Brandywine at Sarn Ford, thence due west to the Ered Luin. If Boromir does not have an Ered Luin theory, then why is he crossing the Greyflood to go north up the Greenway? Where does he think he is going?
So, let’s stick with the Ered Luin speculation. Boromir, now on foot, heads towards Sarn Ford, and then towards the Ered Luin. This would explain why his journey took 110 days. Assume he reaches the Ered Luin, and begins exploring, looking for promising dales, or for intelligence. Assume that he gets intelligence, indicating that he is in the wrong place, on the wrong side of Eriador. Who could he have got such intelligence from? Possibly Dwarves, and possibly Elves. But let’s assume that he does get this unwelcome intelligence.
Now Boromir has a long way to go. Still, not so long as the distance from Minas Tirith to Tharbad. There are various ways he could travel: 1. Back past Sarn Ford to the Greenway, up the Greenway to Bree, east on the Dwarf Road. 2. Back past Sarn Ford, cut south of the South Downs, thence to the Last Bridge over the Hoarwell, avoiding Bree. 3. Head east, or north east, aiming to pick up the Dwarf Road near Michel Delving, thence east to Bree, through the Shire. 4. Head further northeast passing north of the Shire until hitting the Greenway between Bree and Fornorst, thence south to Bree.
There are not any good ways to head for Rivendell bypassing Bree to the north. There is a possible route bypassing Bree to the south. But, most routes from the Ered Luin to Rivendell lead through Bree, with the added incentive of probably being able to re-supply there.
Of course, if we discount the Ered Luin supposition, then Boromir would have just headed up the Greenway until he reached Bree (though hard to know why his journey would have then taken 110 days, and hard to know why he is avoiding Mountains and likely ‘dale’ locations).
So, there are many speculative routes Boromir could have taken from Tharbad to Rivendell, but, once he crossed the Greyflood, it is highly likely that he would have passed through Bree at some time.
So, if we assume that Boromir did pass through Bree, when?
What we know: We know that Boromir arrived in Rivendell at night on the 24th of October. That is 4 days after Frodo arrives in Rivendell, on the night of the 20th. Aragorn and the Hobbits have taken 21 days to travel from Bree to Rivendell. They are on foot, but have largely avoided the road, in favor of concealment in the hills.
Assumptions: Assume that Boromir gets re-supplied in Bree. He probably has gold (in his belt, purse, and boots) as an experienced campaigner would know enough to not keep all his resources on the horse that perished in the Greyflood. Even if out of money, Boromir is authoritative enough, confident enough, lordly enough, intimidating enough, persuasive enough, charming enough, to get re-supplied by one means or another in Bree. But, assume he cannot acquire a horse. (Barliman had a hard enough time finding a pack pony for the Hobbits). Boromir is on foot, with a fairly heavy pack. Still, he has been long delayed, so is pushing hard. He is very strong and fit. He is travelling on the road. He must be much faster than the Hobbits from Bree to the Ford of Bruinen. He might take some time to find Rivendell from the Ford of Bruinen, as the route is concealed, and not obvious. It could have taken him longer to find Rivendell from the Ford than it took Glorfindel, Aragorn and Hobbits. It took them only hours to get from the Ford (which they reached in the late afternoon of the 20th) to Rivendell (which they reached in the night of the 20th). (It also took Gandalf the Dwarves, and Bilbo, only hours to reach Rivendell from the Ford, as they crossed the Ford after noon, and arrived at Rivendell just as twilight faded into night, sometime in early June.)
Assume it takes Boromir 14-16 days from Bree to the Ford, and 1-3 days Ford to Rivendell.
I don’t think that Boromir arrived at the Ford earlier than Frodo, as he would have presumably got tangled up with Black Riders along the way.
I think the earliest he could have reached the Ford would be the day after Frodo, and possibly two or three days after Frodo reached the Ford. So, if he reached the Ford on the 21st, 22nd, or 23rd, then he might have left Bree between the 7th and the 9th, and arrived in Bree between the 4th and the 7th.
So, if Boromir came to Rivendell via Bree, it is likely that he arrived in Bree about 3-6 days after Gandalf left Bree, 4-7 days after the Hobbits left Bree.
Of course, he would have stayed at the Prancing Pony. Probably for 2 nights.
Conclusion: I think it is probable (though not certain) that Boromir passed through Bree on his way to Imladris. Possibly after a long detour towards the Ered Luin (though there are other possible explanations for the duration of his journey).
Inclinations favoring going through Bree: Once Boromir crossed the Greyflood, most routes (though not all) to Rivendell would go through Bree. Bree would be a good place for Boromir to re-supply.
Inclinations against going through Bree: At the start of the Council of Elrond, Boromir, ‘gazed at Frodo and Bilbo with sudden wonder’. If he had gone through Bree, he should have seen ‘halflings’ there. Would his ‘wonder’ at seeing Frodo and Bilbo have been so ‘sudden’ if he had seen Hobbits before?
Any other speculations on whether Boromir passed through Bree?