Do Balrogs Have Names?

'Soon'?

I am in favor of differentiating their designs, but not so much their characters. They should look similar enough to obviously be the same species, but there is room for variation.

Morgoth will have two balrogs in his throne room at all times. Certainly, he can talk to them. But they are just yes-men, goons. Unless one of them is unexpectedly funny, we aren't going to get to know them.

I am thinking of the Mystics in The Dark Crystal. Each of them has a unique look, and a different role/job in their village. But the audience views them collectively, with the exception of their leader. Their role in the story is very much interchangeable. The Skekses, on the other hand, the audience has more time to get to know, with their internal politics and ambitions. I don't think we need that with balrogs.

So, I am fine assigning them names, so we can keep track of who does what, but I think the question of differentiation should be left up to the artists. I don't think it's a matter of establishing separate characters on screen.
 
MithLuin said:
That would be rather anachronistic, don't you think?

A war club of some sort is possible, but of a much older design. Something more ancient.

As long as they have fiery whips.
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Maybe that’s their sidearm, in contrast with a sword as a sidearm?
 
War clubs are fine. Just use inspiration for an older part of history, not 'The Last of the Mohicans.'
 
That imitation Theory is heavily disputed as far as I know... Native americans used to claim there is no way that these weapons were an imitation of muskets and the visual similarity is a pure coincidence. In fact i DO have seen similar weapons from other parts of the world... not exactly musket shaped , but not far from it... but none of them were prehistoric designs, so I have no opinion about it.
 
Warclubs are an invention typically of societies who do not use metal. I don't think that's a type of technology Angband would have. They have metal and can make axes.
 
Faelivrin said:
Warclubs are an invention typically of societies who do not use metal. I don't think that's a type of technology Angband would have. They have metal and can make axes.
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I was under the impression that it is more a difference between "crushing" and "slicing", not so much to do with materials.

A club won't mind that your target is wearing a layer of armour, it will simply send them flying—possibly doing a bit of actual crushing as well—by the application of kinetic energy. An axe, on the other hand, while delivering a mighty buffet, might well be stymied by a layer of armour and even get stuck…much more useful for the lopping off of extraneous limbs: without armour ideally but if you can aim for the gaps then you're quids in.

So making an axe out of wood might be an interesting scientific exercise, whereas if you don't have much metal you might prefer clubs, but there's nothing to stop you making a club out of metal.

You might even call it "Grond".
 
It's really that with bronze or iron or steel available, you make an axe or a mace. I'm not certain whether those function any differently against armor. Or you make a pick, warhammer, polearm, or sword.

When I see the word "warclub" I do not think of a mace or anything else made of metal. Instead, I envision the various historical warclubs made entirely out of wood, or with shark's teeth or small pieces of stone tied or glued to a wooden club, or carved out of jade in the same shape as weapons more often carved out of wood. The shape, design, structure, and use of those weapons typically arose from histories of not having access to metal (either technologically, or financially for peasants), and were informed by the materials that were available instead -- their structural properties, and the methods needed to shape them. They were either designed to be made of wood, or were more-or-less big sticks or branches with the twigs cut off.

I do not think the Balrogs, who are generally on fire/made of fire, could wield weapons made of wood. I also don't think they'd make weapons of a shape designed specifically for wood, out of something that was not wood (I think only the Maori ever did that). I don't think anyone in Angband would have a history of wooden weapons, except for sticks occasionally used as clubs by Orcs when nothing else was available. So, it doesn't make sense to me for their weapons to look just like wooden weapons but be made of fire or metal. They would look like they're designed to take advantage of the properties of metal, or of fire.

Angband weapons don't necessarily look exactly like European maces. But I do not like the idea of them looking like this, or these, or being designed to look like a fruit like this, or like shark teeth like this, or like a musket.


EDIT: Interestingly, many human weapons evolved out of farm tools or the like, and sometimes show their origin in their design... which Angband weapons also wouldn't have.
 
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Haerangil said:
That imitation Theory is heavily disputed as far as I know... Native americans used to claim there is no way that these weapons were an imitation of muskets and the visual similarity is a pure coincidence. In fact i DO have seen similar weapons from other parts of the world... not exactly musket shaped , but not far from it... but none of them were prehistoric designs, so I have no opinion about it.
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What research I have done suggests that what is in dispute is primarily the claim that some early gun stock clubs were fashioned from actual muskets. This claim has little to no evidence supporting it.

What the historical and archeological record do show is that these weapons are absent from native American populations until the late 17th century after contact was made with Europeans. Also, there are accounts of tribes being intimidated by the weapons, mistaking them for functioning firearms.

Native American historians have pointed to other cultures using a similar design, but that does not actually provide any basis to contest imitation that overcomes the archeological evidence.
 
MithLuin said:
'Soon'?

I am in favor of differentiating their designs, but not so much their characters. They should look similar enough to obviously be the same species, but there is room for variation.

Morgoth will have two balrogs in his throne room at all times. Certainly, he can talk to them. But they are just yes-men, goons. Unless one of them is unexpectedly funny, we aren't going to get to know them.

I am thinking of the Mystics in The Dark Crystal. Each of them has a unique look, and a different role/job in their village. But the audience views them collectively, with the exception of their leader. Their role in the story is very much interchangeable. The Skekses, on the other hand, the audience has more time to get to know, with their internal politics and ambitions. I don't think we need that with balrogs.

So, I am fine assigning them names, so we can keep track of who does what, but I think the question of differentiation should be left up to the artists. I don't think it's a matter of establishing separate characters on screen.
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Well, definitely look at least slightly different to keep track of them. And what jobs would they have?
 
There´s a big difference between a simple wooden club and a more sophisticated weapons of the kind... Mail protects from cuts, a blunt weapon such as amace can cimply crush your bones even when wearing mail. So No, it´s not a weapon of pre-iron-age societies.

Of course the Balrogs should not wield crude wooden sticks like Neanderthals (or Thorin Oakenshield), but have finely worked weapons. We´ve already went through alength with possible balrog weapons...
 
Haerangil said:
So No, it´s not a weapon of pre-iron-age societies.
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A mace is often metal, true (although there were stone-headed precursors). But a wooden or stone warclub almost always was, historically, a weapon of pre-bronze societies -- mostly pre-colonial Native American and Pacific island and Australian Aboriginal cultures. The only exception I recall from my research is the Irish shillelagh, a ceremonial duelling weapon rather than a weapon of war. (Baseball bats don't count, they aren't even designed for sparring.)

A warclub and a mace are not actually the same weapon. "Warclub" also covers a wide variety of weapons, actually... but none of them is a mace. The difference is not between good and bad workmanship. Most warclubs I have seen are quite beautifully and carefully crafted, usually symmetrical, and sometimes decorated. They are not "crude" by any means.


One distinction is that a mace often has knobs, spikes, or flanges on it which concentrate force, greatly increasing the chances of breaking a bone, or even piercing armor. Most warclubs don't (it's hard to make wood hold an edge or point), instead they're the non-metal equivalent of an iron cylinder or spatula-shaped iron club. The exceptions I know of are:

Leiomano, with shark teeth inset in the wood. A weapon only a pre-metal society of mariners would make. I don't know what the metal equivalent would be.
Macuahuitl, with stone blades inset in the wood. A non-metal equivalent of a chopping sword.
Tebutje, like a macauitl but with shark teeth. Also equivalent to a chopping sword.
Tewhatewha, taiaha, and similar weapons. They're shaped and used kind-of like spears, and the metal equivalent would likely be a spear, or a polearm of some kind.
Totokia, with a wooden point. Take away the tropical fruit decoration, and it's the wooden equivalent of a military pick or warhammer.

The thing is, the metal equivalents of warclubs are going to be... a smooth metal bar, a smooth round-headed mace, a sword, a spear, a polearm, a pick, or a warhammer.


Make them out of fire and... I don't know? Fire (well, normal nonmagical fire) seems to be a sort of fluid, but with an axe or mace or warhammer you're trying to make a hard impact.


But how about this mace? I have no idea if that is actually "authentic" as advertised, but the skull is a good touch.
 
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simply not true. Even in Roman and medieval Times wooden Clubs were still in use, though often modified with metal parts.
 
I am pretty confused now. Are you saying you do, or do not, want Balrogs to wield specifically Pacific Islander, or Native American, or Australian Aboriginal wooden warclubs? Or specifically Roman clubs? ... made of wood?

I think we are likely miscommunicating somewhere, because "club" is such a broad and vague word, so we aren't talking about the same things. (A lot of sources online call a mace or tetsubo a type of club, but I expected "club" to mean weapons made entirely of wood.) I added links in this post and my previous post to pictures, so it will be clearer what I'm trying to say.


I wasn't talking about sticks and billy clubs. I was talking about wooden warclubs used on the battlefield, which are different from sticks, from billy clubs, and even from metal maces. I doubt the Roman Legions went to war with clubs. According to Wikipedia, the Irish didn't go to war with shillelaghs.

Do you mean the aklys? I can't find a picture online, but English Wikipedia describes it as a javelin or having metal spikes, not as something blunt made entirely out of wood. Once somebody puts a metal or stone blade on a warclub, I would think of it as a type of spear or axe. (Unless it's a sword-shaped macuahuitl.) If they add metal spikes, I would call it a mace or tetsubo. (Unless it's just a board with a nail in it.)

I don't think Balrogs should be wielding crude wooden clubs, or sticks, either. (...earlier, I thought you didn't, either?) Uprooting a whole tree and swinging it around while it's on fire, perhaps... that could be scary and impressive. But not as a regular part of their arsenal. I don't think they're actually capable of holding a piece of wood very long without destroying it.
 
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No. Personally I hate Clubs... I think some Orcs could wield wooden clubs with additional metal parts as secondary weapons... I also think there´s a reference for it in the text at at least one point.

Balrogs could wield weapons similar to german war-Flails or ketten-Morgenstern/Morninstar-Flail-like weapons, but I suggest they´d be made entirely of black Steel instead of metal & Wood... Balrogath should be strong enough to manage weapons of that kind.
 
Haerangil said:
No. Personally I hate Clubs... I think some Orcs could wield wooden clubs with additional metal parts as secondary weapons... I also think there´s a reference for it in the text at at least one point.

Balrogs could wield weapons similar to german war-Flails or ketten-Morgenstern/Morninstar-Flail-like weapons, but I suggest they´d be made entirely of black Steel instead of metal & Wood... Balrogath should be strong enough to manage weapons of that kind.
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Throw in a 2x4 with nails for an Orc or two?
 
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