Draft outline for Season 2

Haakon

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Dr Olsen talked about the death of Denethor, but as I understand it, that happens after Morgoth comes back to Middle-earth.
 

MithLuin

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Perhaps he was referring to Dan, father of Denethor, who would have died much earlier? (ie, during this season)
 

MithLuin

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Oh, no, the draft here definitely says Denethor, and I'm sure he mentioned Denethor. I was just thinking that perhaps he really means Denethor's father Dan/Lenwë? I don't recall if we know anything about his fate, but he could be killed during Season 2 if we need him to be.

Because as you say, the death of Denethor will not be until later (in Season 3, after Morgoth sends all the orcs into Beleriand). In this battle: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/First_Battle_of_Beleriand
 

Haakon

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I certainly mean Denethor in my outline draft.

It's a good idea to think about whether we should show the death of Lenwë. I think perhaps we should avoid it though. Or maybe not... If he dies before Denethor leaves for Beleriand, Denethor shouldn't have left, he should have stayed, becoming the leader of all the silvan elves. But he just takes a part of them along. Of course, we could have a scene where, after Dan's death (he could be killed by a fell beast of some sort) Denethor wants them all to move west, because the place where they live is full of dangers, but some choose to stay.
 

Haakon

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So MithLuin I had a thought earlier about the elf-fathers, I didn't write it anywhere but I saw in another thread that you suggested it: That the elf-fathers are the leaders of the Avari. I think it makes a lot of sense. Of course, it is a pity, the first elves sliding into the forgotten shadows of history, but on the other hand, we're saying the Valar were wrong in inviting the elves, so the elf-fathers were perhaps right, then....
 
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Haakon

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So MithLuin I had a thought earlier about the elf-fathers, I didn't write it anywhere but I saw in another thread that you suggested it: That the elf-fathers are the leaders of the Avari. I think it makes a lot of sense. Of course, it is a pity, the first elves sliding into the forgotten shadows of history, but on the other hand, we're saying the Valar were wrong in inviting the elves, so the elf-fathers were perhaps right, then....
But it seems that none of the Minyar (Vanyar) became Avari, so maybe Ingwë was one of the elf-fathers?
 

Haakon

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For instance, the courtship of Fëanor and Nerdanel takes place after the birth of Fingolfin but before the birth of Finarfin, IIRC.)
About this... If we're having the Fëanor-Galadriel situation where she refuses to give him a strand of her hair... I mean, it seems that he marries Nerdanel before Galadriel's father is born. Trying to get the timeline right here...

EDIT: Ok I checked the story, it's not about courting at all. Forget it. :)
 
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Haakon

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But he cant be. He had a sister ( the mother of Indis or Indis herself).
Well is it clear that Indis or her mother were actually sister of Ingwë?

The problem here is that if none of the Vanyar became Avari, and Ingwë wasn't the firstborn leader, then why did Ingwë assume leadership? If, on the other hand, the mother of Indis was also one of the Unbegotten, then she could have been considered a 'sister', but not in the sense that included having the same parents.
 

Alcarohtar

Active Member
Well is it clear that Indis or her mother were actually sister of Ingwë?

The problem here is that if none of the Vanyar became Avari, and Ingwë wasn't the firstborn leader, then why did Ingwë assume leadership? If, on the other hand, the mother of Indis was also one of the Unbegotten, then she could have been considered a 'sister', but not in the sense that included having the same parents.
Exactly the same can be said about Elwë, Olwë and Elmo too then
 

MithLuin

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There are two different versions of the story with Indis. In one, she is identified as Ingwë's sister. In the other, she is the daughter of Ingwë's (unnamed) sister. In either case, Ingwë definitely has a sister. As for what happens to Imin, we have some options. He or his wife could be one of the elves stolen by Melkor, and thus some combination of death/grief makes him step down. OR, he could have interest in other things, and leaves leadership to others of the Vanyar. I don't think we have to be too worried about making Ingwë one of the oldest elves at Cuivienen. He is merely the leader amongst his people, for whatever reason. We could make Ingwë the son of Imin.

Elwë is of course clearly not one of the unbegotten, as he has brothers and no wife.

I don't want to go too far with incorporating this story, but perhaps having three different 'settlements' along the lakeshore at Cuivienen with the three different groups divvied up accordingly. The Vanyar are the smallest group, the two larger groups are a mixture of Noldor/Avari and Teleri/Sindar/Nandor/Avari.
 
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Haakon

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I realise there are a couple of things suggesting that Ingwë isn't Imin. I admit I might be wrong. I think that making Ingwë Imin's son is a good idea. But we're going to have to decide what happens to Imin. Considering how he's depicted in the legend, it seems unlikely that he would lose interest in leading his group. And it wouldn't work.The other elf-fathers could become Avari, that's fine. But he can't stay because none of the Minyar stayed. Alternatively, he is killed, but who or what kills him then? Whichever it is we can't just skip it. And the way he dies will have impact.

Taken by the Hunter?
 

MithLuin

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Yes, I am thinking he is dead/captured before Oromë arrives. So, we will kill him off in the first episode, and then move along. Ingwë is *so* set on 'let's all leave Middle Earth right now!' Having his father be one of the elves who was taken/killed would give him plenty of motivation for that.

Also, I was definitely planning to skip over the part where the three elf-fathers walk around and claim the awakening elves. That is the part that is too....nursery story. I am fine with there being three groups, and their relative sizes being as described, but.....well, I'm pretty leery of the other part.
 
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Haakon

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I agree about that quality. But then again, the story of Aulë and the Dwarves has the same feeling.
 

Haakon

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But I see the depiction of this legend in a less realistic way than the rest of the story. Like (but not exactly like) the story of the three brothers in that Harry Potter movie.
 

ouzaru

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That's harder for us to do, though, considering we're viewing the action sort of "as it happens". I think we sort of need to pin down exactly how we're going to depict it, or else not really show it at all and say "nobody really knows this stuff any more".
 

Haakon

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I think it would be possible to show this in a different way than the rest. Most viewers will be open minded enough to accept a short deviation from the usual tone, especially if we present this as a legend clouded by the mists of time.
 
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