Elf-magic

I find this an inspiration of how singing magic can be done:
This is one of the "runor" from the Kalevala, even if this differ a bit from the version published by Lönnrot. It is about how the young and arrogant Joukahainen challenges the old song-master Väinämöinen to a song-contest. Väinämöinen sings Joukahainen down into a bog, and Joukahainen offers Väinämöinen his property to let him go. Väinämöinen refuses until Joukahainen offers his sister Aino's hand in marriage.
 
has anyone ever been awake for a really long time (like between 24 and 48 hours or more), and started to get the impression that they hear music? like a kind of random progression of tones, almost like choral-sounding, or a low whistling, or chimes? if not, I hear this is a great way to give yourself a blood clot.

I couldn't say whether this is entirely the product of imagination, or a combination of that and insomniac chemistry: but this is what I imagine when I read about the music of the Ainur filling the halls of Eru, and passing beyond hearing, like the music of the spheres. you imagine nature to have this unpredictable "rhythm", something that if you heard it might not sound exactly melodic, but the idea that nature itself could be founded on it is a fascinating one...

if the Elves were to tap into this neverending rhythm for magical effect (and I wouldn't underestimate any effect that could be achieved in this way, as it could potentially channel the raw creative powers of the Valar themselves), they are perhaps in a position where they could weave the "music" of nature in with the music of the spirit, which humans have more of an ear for.

the spell of Luthien, for instance, has to be one of the most powerfully moving things a person can hear - that is, distinctly melodic - and her charisma is probably as much a factor there as the song itself; but if it also has a haunting quality, this could owe to an element of fundamental randomness (e.g. dissonance) as well - like a siren's song, which is exactly how I would have described that uh... hallucination

sooner or later there'll be an example (need to find my recorder - am not a musician)
 
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to cite GoT yet again, we might imagine something like the chanting of the witch in Khaleesi's tent, although this instance is decidedly demonic

can be difficult to hear with all else going on (also be warned, graphic violence... apologies)


dunno why everything I post has to be so morbid, but this concept has potential to be quite different: it can be darkly foreboding, like the murmuring summons of a necromancer; or it can have the rapturous grace of an angelic choir, or the eerie and fateful melancholy of a siren, or a banshee.

I'm looking forward to Luthien's spell in particular, although this will be such a challenge... it reminds me of the story of Orpheus and Eurydice, which is also difficult to imagine for similar reasons
 
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Thats a very nice idea of how elvish song magic does work... I never thought of that much deeply as i simply used to accept the historical practice of rhyme and song in magic as with the celtic bards and filidh or the norse galder...
 
there was something I read once about Elvish chanting, but I could never quite visualize what was meant by it...

it definitely seems important to have more traditional singing in the mix - and maybe even the kind of youthfully silly improvisations like what was sung when Bilbo first arrived at Rivendell. and it may be that some folk music suits incantations perfectly; it would be interesting to hear more examples

in any case, there seems like a definite difference of purpose between what sounds pleasing to the ear, and what has magical utility - just like the difference between common speech, and "magic words" that are apparently gibberish. and this makes sense, if you consider that to use magical language for common speech (or magical music for entertainment) could invoke all manner of unintended consequences: it's fortunate to have words and sounds that can rouse the spirit without doing much else besides - and all of the songs that are sung in the common tongue seem to have this function, whether or not there are other components also

as there well could be

but this is not to say that a song cannot be simultaneously beautiful and potent, by any means.
 
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that repetition in Halstein's video is hypnotic... really supports the idea that magic can be crafted out of the mundane

like all the knots you could make with a bit of string, it's not the words themselves, but the way they're wound and woven together...

for a rune-singer, it's easy to picture how every line could reinforce some effect
 
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Well there are teo famous elven magic songs we know... Or three maybe! We have luthiens sleeping spell, finrods and saurons singing duel but most interesting i find belegs whetting spell, whete he calls upon mythical names of famous weapons and their owners
 
Finrod's magic is a tricky case, I think. I don't have my books right now but as I remember it, his magical singing chnges his appearance and the appearance of his companions, making them look like orcs. They grow fangs and everything. Now...how does he learn to do this kind of thing? Shape changing doesn't seem to be common elven knowledge. Is it some kind of illusion, or a real change? Does he actually have such great power? It's the kind of thing we see Ainur do. Or maybe his singing engages some Maiar spirits who help him change the looks of the group? - But I don't think I'd like that...
 
The tale of Beren and Lúthien has *much* more of the traditional magic spells in it than the rest of Tolkien's work. It's not terribly surprising that Finrod is using magic here that we don't see him use in any other circumstance and that is out-of-place for elf-magic. We will have to figure out how we are going to reconcile that with the rest of the story, I think.

One easy out is to have Finrod sit in on whatever lessons Melian is teaching Galadriel and Lúthien - so he has some of the same abilities that we associate with Maiar-only.

Another option is to have Finrod's glamor be a deceit - it's just an illusion, and as such is no different from the Mirkwood elves of the Hobbit with the dwarves stumbling into their picnics. We are going to show Sauron dispel whatever Finrod does, so they are revealed as elves (and a man), not orcs. So, I think that no matter what, the implication will be that Finrod did not actually physically change their bodies into orcs. This would make their disguises just one step up from the elvish cloaks the Fellowship gets in Lorien...so not terribly out of place God-level magic.

Whatever we do with this, we will have to integrate it with the concealment of Nargothrond and the building of Minas Tirith, as those are the places where Finrod would show magical abilities before this. Also, probably the escape that Barahir covered in the first place.
 
Well and maybe all elves are sort of a bit magical, but some few exceptions are REALLY good magicians. And Finrod is one of those special talents...
 
All elves will indeed have to be a bit magical. From the creation of the Silmarils to the disappearing feasts of the elves of Mirkwood, there are a lot of passages in the texts that are clear about that. And Sam's rope etc. It is just the shape changing magic that's special. It seems very unusual- or we'd get more examples.
I'm fine with not explaining it too much, but leaving it an open question whether it's a real change or not. We could show Melian teaching Galadriel, Luthien and Finrod. We could see him use his song to hide Nargothrond and change the looks of himself and his men. We don't necessarily have to make clear that these are illusions - or power over living matter. Explaining as little as possible about how magic works can often be a good idea, as long as it makes sense in the narrative.
 
MithLuin said:
One easy out is to have Finrod sit in on whatever lessons Melian is teaching Galadriel and Lúthien - so he has some of the same abilities that we associate with Maiar-only.
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What about Finrod talking with Maiar when he was still living in Valinor? Could he have picked up some hints, or even some training, then?
 
NotACat said:
What about Finrod talking with Maiar when he was still living in Valinor? Could he have picked up some hints, or even some training, then?
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If there's room in a season 2 episode outline, perhaps we could see Galadriel and Finrod with Olorin?
 
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