Elrond and Cirdan - ulterior motive?

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
Just brainstorming on why Elrond and Cirdan didn't push any harder at Isildur to destroy the Ring.

Elrond and Cirdan have these awesome Rings of their own. Probably not wearing them as Corey jokingly suggested in class, as they just moments ago finished battle with Sauron with his Ruling Ring on his hand. But secreted away on their persons somewhere, or in a safe place from which they will soon be retrieved.

Elrond must have plans in mind for the things he would do with his Ring. Plans that he doesn't know for certain will still work minus one Ring.

Could this, in the back of his mind, be enough for him to push less ardently than he might have otherwise? It's not a good look, but Elrond isn't perfect.
 
Another possibility is that Elrond and Cirdan do not really know at this time just how dangerous the One Ring is?

Have they ever worn their own Rings yet (or for long)? These were hidden the moment Sauron's device of the One was discovered (about 10 years after the Three were forged)?

Do they know that the One would even work for anyone other than Sauron?

What exactly do they know? They may know that the One Ring is not good. They may think, "better to burn it". But it could be they do not know much about it or its true nature yet.

It is possible that wearing and wielding their own Rings in the future, combined with Saruman's study and research on ring-making and the nature of the Rings of Power, possibly together with knowledge gained from encountering the Nine (We know they have appeared in Middle Earth, but where? Have the Elves encountered them?) evidence learned from observing the Seven? is what gives them the insights and knowledge that they have about the One Ring at the time of the War of the Ring. Perhaps they do not know so much at the time of the battle of the Last Alliance?

If Elrond and Cirdan just have a suspicion and a foreboding, "This Ring is not good! Probably better that it is destroyed!" rather than deep knowledge of its evil nature, then it is much easier to understand why they don't push Isildur as much as might have been wise.
 
It is interesting to read hyper-literally what Elrond says:

`Alas! yes,' said Elrond. `Isildur took it, as should not have been. It should have been cast then into Orodruin's fire nigh at hand where it was made. But few marked what Isildur did. He alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-galad only Círdan stood, and I. But Isildur would not listen to our counsel.​
' "This I will have as weregild for my father, and my brother," he said; and therefore whether we would or no, he took it to treasure it. But soon he was betrayed by it to his death; and so it is named in the North Isildur's Bane. Yet death maybe was better than what else might have befallen him.​

If we assume perfect recall and accurate phrasing from Elrond here, we know that: 1) He thinks it should have been destroyed; 2) Isildur claimed the ring, rationalizing it as weregild; 3) No matted what Elrond and Cirdan thought, he was determined to keep it.

We aren't told explicitly that they told Isildur to destroy it at all. That is implied, certainly, and it seems to me likely that it happened that way. But Elrond's statement that it ought to have been destroyed is phrased retrospectively, and he never specifically says here what arguments he made, just that they were--or would have been--ineffectual. So I think there is room here for a reader to suggest something like what you're implying, amysrevenge.

Cynically, one could even read the passage as Elrond talking around his lack of forceful and pointed argumentation in the moment.

Elrond: "Isildur should have destroyed the ring."

Questioner: "Of course! Didn't you tell him to do that?"

Elrond: "He was going to take it no matter what I said or did."

Questioner: "Ok, but... did you tell him that? Specifically?"

Elrond: "I told him not to take it."

Elrond doesn't exactly answer the implicit question.

That said, this is not my reading, and I think he probably did do all he could in the moment, and suggested as forcefully as possible that Isildur cast it into the fire, and all that. But it's fun to play in the space left behind.
 
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The scenario here is three people having a conversation on a battlefield at the end of a long war, having witnessed the deaths of Gil-galad, Sauron, and Elendil moments before. So, it is very possible that they weren't all calmly discussing the next course of action here, but rather responding with their own thoughts in a rather emotional way. So, Círdan and Elrond, who have been with Gil-galad for the past 3,000 years (roughly), are a bit shocked and angry over his demise (he was just burned to death by Sauron, after all!), and so the impulse to retaliate by burning the Ring may very well have been stated with some vehemence or anger or grief. Isildur, likewise, just saw his father killed in front of him, and had earlier lost his brother in this war. His claim of the Ring as wereguild is also born out of anger and grief.

So, I do think it likely that Elrond and Círdan spoke up, but I doubt they articulated their thoughts as calmly or as foresightedly as they typically do. Isildur may have been unconvinced that they were motivated by any reason other than grief or anger, in which case...so was he, so...even arguments. I doubt that Elrond knew, in that moment, that Isildur taking the Ring would directly lead to his death and sunder his kingdoms. So, when he said not to take it....he could only say that it was a fell creation and that it would be best to destroy it. That...doesn't sound as convincing as it might have.

Also, this is an alliance. It's not like either Círdan or Elrond is in a position to order Isildur to do anything. They can suggest and recommend and counsel, but...there's a limit to their authority over Elendil's son.
 
The scenario here is three people having a conversation on a battlefield at the end of a long war, having witnessed the deaths of Gil-galad, Sauron, and Elendil moments before. So, it is very possible that they weren't all calmly discussing the next course of action here, but rather responding with their own thoughts in a rather emotional way. So, Círdan and Elrond, who have been with Gil-galad for the past 3,000 years (roughly), are a bit shocked and angry over his demise (he was just burned to death by Sauron, after all!), and so the impulse to retaliate by burning the Ring may very well have been stated with some vehemence or anger or grief. Isildur, likewise, just saw his father killed in front of him, and had earlier lost his brother in this war. His claim of the Ring as wereguild is also born out of anger and grief.

So, I do think it likely that Elrond and Círdan spoke up, but I doubt they articulated their thoughts as calmly or as foresightedly as they typically do. Isildur may have been unconvinced that they were motivated by any reason other than grief or anger, in which case...so was he, so...even arguments. I doubt that Elrond knew, in that moment, that Isildur taking the Ring would directly lead to his death and sunder his kingdoms. So, when he said not to take it....he could only say that it was a fell creation and that it would be best to destroy it. That...doesn't sound as convincing as it might have.

Also, this is an alliance. It's not like either Círdan or Elrond is in a position to order Isildur to do anything. They can suggest and recommend and counsel, but...there's a limit to their authority over Elendil's son.
And if they stated their case (emotionally or dispassionately) to their ally who is grieving the loss of his father and brother, who disagrees and says 'it's mine now', what options do they have to force the issue? It seems only armed force would work and I can't see anyone having the stomach for that.
If they had fallen immediately to squabbling over the fate of the Ring, it would look like the work of the Ring upon them.
 
If they had fallen immediately to squabbling over the fate of the Ring, it would look like the work of the Ring upon them.
Not just look like! Any attempt to take the Ring by force would have led to a new Dark Lord: this is clear from all that Gandalf says, and implied by Galadriel as well. Now, whether Elrond knew that at time, I'm less sure, but have always assumed so. He's so wise and all, you know...
 
Maybe that’s one of the more subtle effects of the Ring: not just to tempt corruptible men to take it for power, but to make incorruptible men (or elves) doubt their ability to remain uncorrupted if they were to take it to destroy it. Maybe Elrond really could have just grabbed the Ring, run up the slopes of Orodruin, and chucked it into the fire without difficulty, but he was unwilling to take the risk.
 
How much did Elrond know about the risk? Saruman had not done his intensive study and research on the rings of power yet. Gandalf had not observed the effects of the Ring on Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo yet. Of course the Celebrimbor knew something about what Sauron might have made, but how much had he told Elrond? Elrond had probably not even had much experience with his own ring of power, as it would have been hidden as soon as the Elves became aware of Sauron forging the One, and not used again until after the Battle of the Last Alliance.

Would Elrond even believe that the ring could be wielded by anyone except Sauron?

Elrond (and Cirdan) might have suspected that destroying the Ring would be a good idea, but did they really have any reason to suspect at that time that the Ring might have the power to corrupt Isildur? Or themselves?

I am not sure that we know that they thought the Ring had any power to tempt corruptible people? I am not sure that they had any notion that the Ring might tempt them, or corrupt them if they were to take it.

How much might Elrond and Cirdan have known about the One Ring at the time?
 
How much did Elrond know about the risk? Saruman had not done his intensive study and research on the rings of power yet. Gandalf had not observed the effects of the Ring on Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo yet. Of course the Celebrimbor knew something about what Sauron might have made, but how much had he told Elrond? Elrond had probably not even had much experience with his own ring of power, as it would have been hidden as soon as the Elves became aware of Sauron forging the One, and not used again until after the Battle of the Last Alliance.

Would Elrond even believe that the ring could be wielded by anyone except Sauron?

Elrond (and Cirdan) might have suspected that destroying the Ring would be a good idea, but did they really have any reason to suspect at that time that the Ring might have the power to corrupt Isildur? Or themselves?

I am not sure that we know that they thought the Ring had any power to tempt corruptible people? I am not sure that they had any notion that the Ring might tempt them, or corrupt them if they were to take it.

How much might Elrond and Cirdan have known about the One Ring at the time?
Yes, it's easy to harshly judge the decisions made when you have greater knowledge of the consequences.

Given that they probably knew much less than we do, the argument would have been along the lines of:
Isildur: 'My kill; I'm looting the corpse.'
Elrond & Círdan: 'That ring belonged to the enemy and could be cursed, you should destroy it.'
Isildur: 'You want to destroy it but I don't, so you don't get a say and I'm keeping it; It's so shiny and precious.'
 
I suggested on discord that the wise elves would theorize, possibly assume, (of course not know for sure) that the Ring is made similar to those things that Feanor made in the sense that the creators' selves are actually a part of said creations and that the destruction of those creations would also mean the destruction of the creator(s).

At least it seems to me not too hard for a wise elf to make that assumption or theory, thus concluding that it is better safe than sorry to destroy Sauron's ring.

Does that hold water? Too general of a notion to actually act on with all the emotions, etc. as MithLuin mentioned?
 
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I suggested on discord that the wise elves would theorize, possibly assume, (of course not know for sure) that the Ring is made similar to those things that Feanor made in the sense that the creators' selves are actually a part of said creations and that the destruction of those creations would also mean the destruction of the creator(s).

At least it seems to me not too hard for a wise elf to make that assumption or theory, thus concluding that it is better safe than sorry to destroy Sauron's ring.

Does that hold water? Too general of a notion to actually act on with all the emotions, etc. as MithLuin mentioned?
I think that the idea of 'destroy the creation, destroy the creator' is too long a bow to draw. What could readily be drawn from the Elves experience is that the greatest creations cannot be reproduced. So, while they might not be hoping that destroying the ring would destroy the recently defeated Sauron, they might have thought (correctly) that destruction of the ring would be a permanent set-back for Sauron. Impact on the Elven rings is pure speculation even during the Council of Elrond, with the wise seemingly taking a 'plan for the worst outcome' perspective.
 
As well, I suppose they have just as much evidence to think that Sauron was completely destroyed regardless of the Ring.
 
You are all approaching this problem of the destruction of the Ring from the wrong angle. We don't have enough people here familiar with magical traditions, I see. :) There are many traditions that feature the "separable soul" as a magical operation. Either as a means to protection -- the "person" whose soul is stored in an object often cannot be harmed while the soul is safely contained away from their body -- or to gain power -- of course when someone else obtains the object containing someone's soul, they gain power over whoever the soul belongs to/comes from, but also in operations such as the binding of demons or other spirits to service of a sorcerer. The Harry Potter franchise used this very recently and I'm a bit surprised that no one thought to make any analogies. The main villain could not be killed until all his various soul fragments stored in external objects (one of which was the protagonist - an interesting twist) were somehow either destroyed or otherwise purged of his "soul stuff".

As usual, Tolkien adds new twists to the traditional motifs. First: Even though the "good guys" effectively have the "soul" of their enemy in their possession, they cannot use it to control him. Instead, if they tried they would be corrupted and become just like him, effectively being possessed by him... The "soul" is too powerful to control even though contained in an object. And yes, that effectively gives Sauron a sort of "magical protection" against final defeat even if his body can be killed, as it was an age ago. Placing one's own soul in an external object is a common prerequisite for sorcerers to possess others, as it happens. The underlying mechanic seems similar with the lesser rings; people who use them effectively become more and more aligned with the device (machine?) they are using until it rules them instead of the other way around. It amounts to a sort of "gradual" or "piece work" selling of one's soul to the Devil, instead of a single catastrophic signing off.

The Ring of Sauron is only one of the various mythical treatments of the placing of one's life, or power, in some external object, which is thus exposed to capture or destruction with disastrous results to oneself. If I were to 'philosophize' this myth, or at least the Ring of Sauron, I should say that it was a mythical way of representing the truth that potency (or perhaps potentiality) if it is to be exercised, and produce results, has to be externalized, and so as it were passes, to a greater or lesser degree, out of one's direct control. A man who wishes to exert power must have subjects, who are not himself. But he then depends on them. -- Letters, #211, p. 279

Reciprocity is a big thing in all mythology and folklore. From the doctrine of 'karma' in Hinduism to 'pacts with demons' in medieval magic. Middle-earth is no different, but Tolkien uses it in a slightly different way than has usually been done. He introduces reciprocity with the 'device' or 'tool' of power itself. The problem of the machine, as he calls it. But it otherwise follows the traditional rules. So it is not really necessary to find the user manual or capture Sauron's lab notes to understand the gist of the situation. While the current "Council of the Wise" comprised of both Elves and Maiar does not know in detail exactly what the result of destroying the Ring will be, they can make a pretty good guess based on their own experience of how magic works in Middle-earth, which is more-or-less how it works in other mythologies despite Tolkien's talent for creative twists. They cannot use it against him, but destroying it has got to do him very serious damage because of how much he had to invest in it.

As for Elrond and Cirdan not grabbing Isildur and heaving him bodily into the Cracks of Doom if he would not let got of the Ring, I think the basic problem of means to an end is the correct issue to focus on. If they attacked him, how could that have a good outcome? This again goes back to a knowledge based on experience. It seems unlikely that Elrond has only recently begun to grasp the nature of those past failures to defeat evil. And it also seems unlikely that he understood that the issue was that urgent.

While I think he had to already understand, even at the time of the Last Alliance, that the Ring represented a significant amount of Sauron's power, I doubt he understood the proportion of Sauron's power that was invested in it. Everyone was already aware that Sauron was a Maia and would be back sooner or later, despite having been temporarily deprived of a physical body. He was probably thinking that destroying it would weaken Sauron somewhat, and that would of course be a good thing, but not that it would render him so dramatically weaker that he would become a shadow of his former self.
"For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed" -- Gandalf, speaking in The Last Debate (Ch. 9 of Return of the King)
At this point, Gandalf had been back to the home office for "consultations" so he probably has expert knowledge from someone (Aule?) who knows this lore better than anyone else around in Middle-earth right now. Without grasping how grave the damage to Sauron would be, Elrond would not have been over-the-top determined to force Isildur to destroy it. He would have regarded it as important, but not an existential issue. Sauron would be back sooner or later, but now would be a good time to destroy the One Ring and possibly make him weaker next time. Thus we have the story told at the Council of Elrond -- "We tried to get him to destroy it, but he refused"...
 
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Elrond got his from Gil-Galad. Exactly when is unknown. Maybe at the Battle of the Last Alliance, or maybe right thereafter, or soon thereafter. The other two were held at the time by Galadriel and Cirdan.
 
In Harry Potter, even the destruction of all of the separate soul fragments in the Horcruxes did not automatically destroy Voldemort, it simply set the conditions to allow the final defeat to occur and, as is always the most satisfying, Voldemort's end was finally brought about through his own actions as much as the hero's actions.

I don't see how my approach is incompatible with yours Forodan: Destruction of the Ring did not, in fact, result in destruction of Sauron, merely a significant diminution of his power. The Wise could have predicted this (did?), but perhaps not the scale of the effect on Sauron.

If the Three operate by the same underlying mechanic it must be that the intent of the creator was sufficiently different that any 'possession' of the bearers was for good rather than evil.

What was pure speculation on the part of the Wise was whether the power grab that the One Ring enabled would then result in a loss of the effectiveness of the Three once the One was destroyed. After all, Sauron never touched the Three so it seems unlikely that there was any of his 'soul' in them, and if the power of the Three was linked to the 'soul' of their creator, any effect should have been felt millennia ago when Celebrimbor was defeated and relocated to the Halls of Mandos.
 
"Compatible" is not a word I would have used. It's not any one person's argument that seems 'wrong' here, it's just a general trend of interpreting the issue. There just seems to be too much of an 'external evidence' approach, similar to modern science, when magic is a very different thing from what we now think of as 'science'. It's more a matter of internal logic, transmission of will and meaning. In any case, there just isn't any detail given by Tolkien himself about what knowledge anyone other than Sauron himself and the ring-smiths of Eregion (primarily Celebrimbor himself, of course) really had. So there is nothing to work with in that way. But that's really one of the strengths of Tolkien's approach to these sorts of things. He doesn't invent any elaborate jargon, unlike so many authors of fantasy novels. And this despite that fact that he makes the most detailed and realistic fictional languages. He keeps the discussion focused on the implications of the power relations, and hides any technical knowledge from direct exposure in the narrative.

As far as the effects of the Three on their users/wearers, I think that is a classic deferred price. A frequent thing in "pacts with the Devil"... It is made very clear in LotR that they and everything they have done with their rings WILL be revealed to Sauron if he regains the One. It's not that those rings are inherently good so much as their wielders have been using them for what they hope are good purposes. They don't seem any less vulnerable to being controlled. Sauron has some knowledge about how they work that allows him to co-opt them somehow, regardless of who made them or uses them. Since they are inherently immortal, Elves enslaved in this way wouldn't become wraiths, but they would still be enslaved. And since they have been using their respective rings for centuries if not millennia (no exact dates are given) it would probably be very quickly if not instantly effective. It is a very interesting question to wonder what effect a Ring of Power has on a Maia such as Gandalf...

What even Sauron apparently did not expect is that there would be another sort of 'reciprocity' in the rings. Celebrimbor himself is clearly stated to have somehow sensed when Sauron completed the One Ring and put it on his finger. ("But Celebrimbor was aware of him, and hid the Three which he had made; and there was war, and the land was laid waste, and the gate of Moria was shut. -- from The Council of Elrond in The Fellowship of the Ring) According to the short summary at the end of the Silmarillion, all of the elves who wore Rings of Power were aware of him.
As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings -- The Silmarillion, OF THE RINGS OF POWER AND THE THIRD AGE
So, they were aware of him and they realized he would control them and everything they did with the rings. A sort of "pact with the Devil" by ambush. But I don't see any reason that Celebrimbor's death would have had any effect on the rings he had made, any more than Sauron's death did on the One Ring. The 'power', whatever it was, had already been fixed in the external object. As for how much effect the final de-powering of the Three had on Celebrimbor, it's not possible to say since he is long gone to the Halls of Mandos. But, as these are "Great Works" that cannot be repeated, similar to the ships of the Teleri or the Silmarils, I think he is very definitely diminished by their loss of whatever their special 'power' was, even if the physical items are not destroyed by this loss.
 
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magic is a very different thing from what we now think of as 'science'. It's more a matter of internal logic, transmission of will and meaning. In any case, there just isn't any detail given by Tolkien himself about what knowledge anyone other than Sauron himself and the ring-smiths of Eregion (primarily Celebrimbor himself, of course) really had. So there is nothing to work with in that way. But that's really one of the strengths of Tolkien's approach to these sorts of things. He doesn't invent any elaborate jargon, unlike so many authors of fantasy novels.
And thank goodness for that!

I added the emphasis in your quote, above. I feel this is very important It is what most annoys me in the magic system in the Harry Potter series: the reduction of magical battle to a video game exercise of point and shoot and dodge. It ought to be much more subtle than that; there's a big advantage to it being largely unexplained, too.

We also court the danger of incorporating the LotRO magic and battle systems into our LotR discussion by hosting the ELotR classes within LotRO, but Corey is very good about keeping a firewall up between the game and book.
 
Reaching back a-ways to follow up on this tangent.

Maybe that’s one of the more subtle effects of the Ring: not just to tempt corruptible men to take it for power, but to make incorruptible men (or elves) doubt their ability to remain uncorrupted if they were to take it to destroy it. Maybe Elrond really could have just grabbed the Ring, run up the slopes of Orodruin, and chucked it into the fire without difficulty, but he was unwilling to take the risk.

That's an interesting hypothesis, but I'm not persuaded; mainly because I don't believe there is such a thing as an "incorruptible" human or elf or anything else in Middle-earth.

To start with the Doyleist argument, my understanding of Tolkien's beliefs is that no creature is good beyond the possibility of corruption, save only God. (He and I part ways when it comes to his rejection of the converse: that no creature is bad beyond the possibility of reform.)

On the forum and in class, we've talked about how, if Elrond and Cirdan attempted to wrest the Ring from Isildur by force - and he certainly would have put up a fight - for the purposes of destroying it, that would have been a bad action, and itself a form of corruption. We could debate whether such an action would be justified in our own world, but in the context of Tolkien's Legendarium, it would be catastrophic.

You suggest Elrond could have carried the Ring from the battlefield to Mount Dum and thrown it in without difficulty. Perhaps, perhaps not. Let's try another hypothetical, though: suppose Frodo gave the Ring to Elrond, (or perhaps to Gandalf, or Glorfindel) in Rivendell to take to the mountain in his place. Would they remain incorruptible throughout the entire journey? Would they resist the temptation to put on the Ring, despite all the devastation and suffering around them, that they could put an end to with a single slip of the Ring onto their finger? Perhaps they would, but it seems to me what textual and subtextual evidence we get over the course of the trilogy indicates they would not.
 
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