Elrond Episode 190 Turin

L

Longtimer

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Professor how could Elrond have been referencing Turin's actions at the battle of Dagor Dagorath while naming Turin as a great elf friend at the Council. He would not know about this as it had not happened and great though his lore may be and far sighted as he may be this would seem beyond him.
 
Professor how could Elrond have been referencing Turin's actions at the battle of Dagor Dagorath while naming Turin as a great elf friend at the Council. He would not know about this as it had not happened and great though his lore may be and far sighted as he may be this would seem beyond him.
Is it not a prophecy of some sort? If it is - either Elvish or of the Edain - then Elrond would know about it.
 
Professor how could Elrond have been referencing Turin's actions at the battle of Dagor Dagorath while naming Turin as a great elf friend at the Council. He would not know about this as it had not happened and great though his lore may be and far sighted as he may be this would seem beyond him.

Hi Longtimer and Odola,

Turin's purported actions come from a prophecy by Mandos in 'The Lost Road and other Writings'.

Now, do we consider this source to be: a) authoritative; and b) something that would be known to Elrond? (It certainly would not be known to a first-time reader of TLOTR, and is not an interpretation which could be gleaned from a close reading of that work.)

a) I do not consider any of the Legendarium published by Christopher Tolkien to be authoritative. JRRT kept revising all his stuff, and we do not know if he might have revised (or eliminated) this prophecy before he ever came up with something he thought ready to publish.

b) But, if you want to use Legendarium material to try to interpret TLOTR (a dubious undertaking), then, would Elrond know about this prophecy? Well, if one considers all writings in the Legendarium 'in frame', then, none of 'The History of Middle-earth is strictly 'in frame'. It is all an exploration of the evolution of JRRT's writings, rather than excerpts from 'The Red Book of Westmarch', as translated from Elvish by Bilbo, and from Westron by JRRT. If we still want to use this out of frame material to interpret TLOTR, as this prophecy does not appear in 'The Silmarillion', then 'in frame' it is not part of the Elvish Lore from Rivendell which Bilbo translated. This might make it less likely (though not impossible) that Elrond knows of it. However, the transmission mechanism by which a prophecy of Mandos could be known by Elrond, is not at all clear.

So, one can use this Legendarium material to speculate that it is Turin's role in the Dagor Dagorath, of 'dealing unto Morgoth his death and final end', with his black sword, which prompts Elrond to include him in the list of mighty Elf-friends. But, use of Legendarium material is dubious (there are plenty of contradictions across 'The History of Middle-earth, and between that and 'The Silmarillion'). And, even if one still wanted to use it, one would have to speculate about how Elrond might have know this prophecy. It is certainly not an interpretation which could be derived from a close reading of TLOTR.
 
Hi Longtimer and Odola,

Turin's purported actions come from a prophecy by Mandos in 'The Lost Road and other Writings'.

Now, do we consider this source to be: a) authoritative; and b) something that would be known to Elrond? (It certainly would not be known to a first-time reader of TLOTR, and is not an interpretation which could be gleaned from a close reading of that work.)

a) I do not consider any of the Legendarium published by Christopher Tolkien to be authoritative. JRRT kept revising all his stuff, and we do not know if he might have revised (or eliminated) this prophecy before he ever came up with something he thought ready to publish.

b) But, if you want to use Legendarium material to try to interpret TLOTR (a dubious undertaking), then, would Elrond know about this prophecy? Well, if one considers all writings in the Legendarium 'in frame', then, none of 'The History of Middle-earth is strictly 'in frame'. It is all an exploration of the evolution of JRRT's writings, rather than excerpts from 'The Red Book of Westmarch', as translated from Elvish by Bilbo, and from Westron by JRRT. If we still want to use this out of frame material to interpret TLOTR, as this prophecy does not appear in 'The Silmarillion', then 'in frame' it is not part of the Elvish Lore from Rivendell which Bilbo translated. This might make it less likely (though not impossible) that Elrond knows of it. However, the transmission mechanism by which a prophecy of Mandos could be known by Elrond, is not at all clear.

So, one can use this Legendarium material to speculate that it is Turin's role in the Dagor Dagorath, of 'dealing unto Morgoth his death and final end', with his black sword, which prompts Elrond to include him in the list of mighty Elf-friends. But, use of Legendarium material is dubious (there are plenty of contradictions across 'The History of Middle-earth, and between that and 'The Silmarillion'). And, even if one still wanted to use it, one would have to speculate about how Elrond might have know this prophecy. It is certainly not an interpretation which could be derived from a close reading of TLOTR.
How: Glorfindel
 
Thinking on what you Odola and Flammifer are saying I guess it is possible it could have come to Elrond from the Numenoreans who had contact with the elves of Tol Eressëa.
 
Sure, it could also have come to Elrond from the Noldor in Beleriand. But, if it somehow came to Elrond, it evidently did not make it into the Elvish Lore in Rivendell which Bilbo translated? Why not? If Bilbo came across it, surely he would have seen it as important lore and included it in 'The Silmarillion'. If Elrond kept it secret from the Lore that Bilbo accessed, why?

I am not saying that Elrond could not have known about this prophecy (if we even believe it existed), but there is no evidence that he did, and, although there is no evidence that he did not, speculating that Elrond did know involves more complexity and more leaps of supposition than guessing that he did not. Occam's razor suggests that we should favor the simpler solution: Elrond did not know this prophecy?
 
Flammifer I know there is no answer to the following since it is unclear the prophecy actually existed but it would seem that the Noldor in Beleriand left Valinor prior to a time when Mandos would have spoken the prophesy. Turin probably would have been treated differently had they know the prophesy and his ultimate fate.
 
Hi Longtimer,

Good deduction. I wondered exactly when and where Mandos' prophecy occurred. However, I don't have 'The Lost Road' to hand. It would be great if you could give us the circumstances of Mandos' prophecy?
 
I am not saying that Elrond could not have known about this prophecy (if we even believe it existed), but there is no evidence that he did, and, although there is no evidence that he did not, speculating that Elrond did know involves more complexity and more leaps of supposition than guessing that he did not. Occam's razor suggests that we should favor the simpler solution: Elrond did not know this prophecy?

Glorfindel had plenty of time to get to know it after he left Mandos. He was reembodied after a short time there and returned to Middle-earth after more than thousand years in Valinor. If he has been briefed before his return - which is to be expected, he has had this one covered, among many others. As such Elrond is quite well informed about Valinorian matters, as Glorfindel was not made to forget part of his knowledge, as the Istari were.
 
I suppose that Glorfindel could have known of Mandos prophecy (though I am not sure why he would have heard of it) and relayed it to Elrond. But, then, why would Elrond not have included it in the Lore of Rivendell, to be translated by Bilbo?

Anyway, this brings up another question (if we want to speculate on Legendarium material). What was the purpose of sending Glorfindel to Middle-earth?
 
I suppose that Glorfindel could have known of Mandos prophecy (though I am not sure why he would have heard of it) and relayed it to Elrond. But, then, why would Elrond not have included it in the Lore of Rivendell, to be translated by Bilbo?

He was in Mandos and then in the "post-reembodiment pre-release training course" ;) or whatever they call it there. Plenty of time even to speak to Mandos himself.

Anyway, this brings up another question (if we want to speculate on Legendarium material). What was the purpose of sending Glorfindel to Middle-earth?

Was this not mentioned somewhere - officially "to protect the descendants of Turgon"? [But I always suspected his family was not so happy to have their black sheep kinslayer back and in the end it was decided that it is better for all sides if he leaves again. Maybe his mother died of a broken heart after he left and all his family keeps blaimimg him, or something.]
 
Hi Odola,

Yes, Glorfindel might have heard of the prophecy of Mandos. But why would he? One does not get the impression that the Valar are particularly chatty with the Elves. I see no reason for Mandos' prophecy to be general knowledge among the Elves in the Blessed Realms, or even general knowledge among the Maiar, nor any particular reason for the Valar to have informed Glorfindel of this particular prophecy?
 
Hi Odola,

Yes, Glorfindel might have heard of the prophecy of Mandos. But why would he? One does not get the impression that the Valar are particularly chatty with the Elves. I see no reason for Mandos' prophecy to be general knowledge among the Elves in the Blessed Realms, or even general knowledge among the Maiar, nor any particular reason for the Valar to have informed Glorfindel of this particular prophecy?

Glorfindel was best buddy with Tuor and Turin was Tuor's cousin. Also if Orodreth was Gil-Galad's father, the late Finduilas was his sister and it is good to know the history of the current royal family and this was still the current royal family at the time of Glorfindel's return in the middle of the Second Age.
 
Yes, Glorfindel is well connected. But, that still does not explain why he should have known about Mandos' prophecy? Also, I am still not certain why Glorfindel might have been sent (or allowed) to venture back to Middle-earth. He has a few good moments in the history of Middle-earth in the Third Age, but, hard to see that they amount to enough to explain this strange and unique retro-grade journey?
 
Since we are discussing this here and now, I'm just going to say I've never liked the idea that the Glorfindel of Rivendell is the same Glorfindel of Gondolin. That is one concept I have never cared for: Elvish reincarnation, at least in the possibility that the no-longer-deceased might return to Middle-earth.
 
Since we are discussing this here and now, I'm just going to say I've never liked the idea that the Glorfindel of Rivendell is the same Glorfindel of Gondolin. That is one concept I have never cared for: Elvish reincarnation, at least in the possibility that the no-longer-deceased might return to Middle-earth.
If elves are immortal, it has to be. If Valinor is not a given, but a Valarin choice, and a part of Arda, also. Otherwise elves would be too much like humans, just that they think their "heaven" to be on an island. And sending Celebrian over would be euthanasia and sailing oneself akin to suicide. Glorfindel is the one sufficient case that proves it not being so.
Edit: As such Glorfindel might have been send as a sign for those of the Sindar (that were born after Thingol) or for the Silvan elves that it was safe and "morally o.k." to sail (that is, if one thinks elves to have "morals/morality" which I am not at all convinced of).
 
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