Elrond isn't an elf?

Jedi Master Tessa

New Member
There's a really interesting, but subtle, moment in the Council of Elrond that you guys missed. (Forgive me if someone has already posted this, I don't keep up with the forum well and I'm perpetually several sessions behind now.) When Gloin asked the elf-lords about the Three Rings, the narrator says "The Elves returned no answer", but then Elrond immediately responds to him. What this tells me is that even though Elrond is counted among the elves spiritually, he is not counted as an elf socially/practically/etc.

There's another line in the Return of the King about Elladan and Elrohir which says "they are fair and gallant as Elvenlords; and that is not to be wondered at in the sons of Elrond of Rivendell". I know we're not allowed to talk about it yet, but I wonder if this is saying "they are fair and gallant because they are elvenlords" or "they are as fair and gallant as if they were elvenlords", meaning they are NOT elf-lords. There is definitely a simile comparing Elrond to elf-lords in the Hobbit, "He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord", but if I remember correctly Tolkien hadn't decided he was half-elven yet, so maybe that doesn't count. Or is it "lord" that's the wrong term to describe him, not "elf"? How often is Elrond actually described as a lord and not as "master"? I don't remember.
 
LOTR only response:
Tolkien uses simile in a number of places to emphasise aspects of things and places, so that alone isn’t enough to exclude Elrond and his sons from the ranks of Elf-lords. The worst case for Elrond is that he is seen as straddling the line between races (Half-Elf). The respect he is shown by the Elves living in Rivendell, his age (~6500), the absence of reports of Men living in Rivendell, and the lack of fanfare surrounding the fact that Elrond married Celeborn and Galadriel’s daughter, all suggest that he is considered to be not just an Elf, but an Elf-lord.


Legendarium based response:
Of the Half-Elven, only two are reported to have chosen to be counted among the Edain (mortals): Elros and his niece Arwen. It is explicitly stated that Elrond, and his parents (Eärendil and Elwing) chose to be counted among the Elves. We are left without a clear statement about Elwing’s brothers (who are presumed dead) and Elrond’s sons. Other than that, there is Dior (Beren and Luthien’s son) whose status is unclear (born of two mortals, but accepted by Elves as king) and the rumours surrounding the line of princes in Dol Amroth although none of these are ‘officially’ Peredhel so they don’t appear to have been offered a choice of fate.

As Aragorn and Arwen’s children are accounted as Men, it seems likely that Dior would also have been. He wouldn’t have been the only example of Elves following a Man (Turin and Beleg) but as it isn’t clearly stated, there is room for argument.
 
I have lately been wondering about Elrond having lost his twin so many ages ago. The bond between twins is especially strong - it must have been wrenching to Elrond when Elros chose to be mortal, and when he died - and that would mean a whole branch of the family, nephews and nieces also were mortal and Elrond never would know them, and that his own children would never know their uncle or cousins. I think this would add to his grief at Arwen's choice - he's been through this before. He lost his wife, but he will rejoin her relatively soon. His brother and his daughter will be merely an absence.

I know this is slightly off topic, but Anthony's look at the family of Half-Elven.
 
LOTR only response:
Tolkien uses simile in a number of places to emphasise aspects of things and places, so that alone isn’t enough to exclude Elrond and his sons from the ranks of Elf-lords. The worst case for Elrond is that he is seen as straddling the line between races (Half-Elf). The respect he is shown by the Elves living in Rivendell, his age (~6500), the absence of reports of Men living in Rivendell, and the lack of fanfare surrounding the fact that Elrond married Celeborn and Galadriel’s daughter, all suggest that he is considered to be not just an Elf, but an Elf-lord.


Legendarium based response:
Of the Half-Elven, only two are reported to have chosen to be counted among the Edain (mortals): Elros and his niece Arwen. It is explicitly stated that Elrond, and his parents (Eärendil and Elwing) chose to be counted among the Elves. We are left without a clear statement about Elwing’s brothers (who are presumed dead) and Elrond’s sons. Other than that, there is Dior (Beren and Luthien’s son) whose status is unclear (born of two mortals, but accepted by Elves as king) and the rumours surrounding the line of princes in Dol Amroth although none of these are ‘officially’ Peredhel so they don’t appear to have been offered a choice of fate.

As Aragorn and Arwen’s children are accounted as Men, it seems likely that Dior would also have been. He wouldn’t have been the only example of Elves following a Man (Turin and Beleg) but as it isn’t clearly stated, there is room for argument.

I am still conviced that Dior's patronym not being "Beren's son" but "Thingol's heir" instead tell us something about his legal status. He is the only one having such a partonym as far I know. And that he is the real precendence for the possibility of a paternally human being being counted among the elves.

There's a really interesting, but subtle, moment in the Council of Elrond that you guys missed. (Forgive me if someone has already posted this, I don't keep up with the forum well and I'm perpetually several sessions behind now.) When Gloin asked the elf-lords about the Three Rings, the narrator says "The Elves returned no answer", but then Elrond immediately responds to him. What this tells me is that even though Elrond is counted among the elves spiritually, he is not counted as an elf socially/practically/etc.

There's another line in the Return of the King about Elladan and Elrohir which says "they are fair and gallant as Elvenlords; and that is not to be wondered at in the sons of Elrond of Rivendell". I know we're not allowed to talk about it yet, but I wonder if this is saying "they are fair and gallant because they are elvenlords" or "they are as fair and gallant as if they were elvenlords", meaning they are NOT elf-lords. There is definitely a simile comparing Elrond to elf-lords in the Hobbit, "He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord", but if I remember correctly Tolkien hadn't decided he was half-elven yet, so maybe that doesn't count. Or is it "lord" that's the wrong term to describe him, not "elf"? How often is Elrond actually described as a lord and not as "master"? I don't remember.

I kept wondering about those textual eferences you have mentioned for long years and came recently to the conclusion that is Elrond is not an elf. He is a special category "Half-elf" even if he is little less then 3/4 of elvish descent.

But belong to neither of the three elvish tribes as those are inherited strickty paternally and paternally Elrond is House of Hador.
He is the son of the only surviving child of Dior Thingol's Heir who inherited his throne from is maternal grandfather (Thingol) via his non ruling mother (Luthien). As such Elrond would, like his granfather Dior, posses the right to be the ruling king of the Sindar via his non ruling mother Elwing. But like Dior he is not a Sinda himself.

His father Earendil was son of Tuor who has been adopted by Annael (a Gray Elf - Sinda) at birth and later declared the heir presumptive by his father-in-law king Turgon (Noldo).
Tuor is reported to have been rumoured to have counted among the elves. If so then his adoptions by the elves might be the reason to regard him as functionally half-elven. He was with humans only from his 16-19 year when he was kept as a slave by the Easteling as far I do remember. So just 3 years of his puberty. Otherwise Tuor had no contact with humans whatsoever beyong seeing his cousin Turin from afar in the woods at one time.

Earendil has been raised in a Noldo city of his maternall grandfather but was still paternally House of Hador, so are his sons and his granchilden. As such there are all half-elven oeven if by blood the latter ones are almost elvish.

As such Son's of Elrond are counted as House of Hador as Aragon would be were he not as he is speciffically House od Elros.
A such they are descibed as elvenlords-like and not as elvenlords simply. Makes total sense if you consider the importance of agnatic descent for the elves.

As such if Aegnor and Andreth had a child, if would have been a Noldo of maternally human descent but by default an elf imho.
 
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I am still conviced that Dior's patronym not being "Beren's son" but "Thingol's heir" instead tell us something about his legal status. He is the only one having such a partonym as far I know. And that he is the real precendence for the possibility of a paternally human being being counted among the elves.



I kept wondering about those textual eferences you have mentioned for long years and came recently to the conclusion that is Elrond is not an elf. He is a special category "Half-elf" even if he is little less then 3/4 of elvish descent.

But belong to neither of the three elvish tribes as those are inherited strickty paternally and paternally Elrond is House of Hador.
He is the son of the only surviving child of Dior Thingol's Heir who inherited his throne from is maternal grandfather (Thingol) via his non ruling mother (Luthien). As such Elrond would, like his granfather Dior, posses the right to be the ruling king of the Sindar via his non ruling mother Elwing. But like Dior he is not a Sinda himself.

His father Earendil was son of Tuor who has been adopted by Annael (a Gray Elf - Sinda) at birth and later declared the heir presumptive by his father-in-law king Turgon (Noldo).
Tuor is reported to have been rumoured to have counted among the elves. If so then his adoptions by the elves might be the reason to regard him as functionally half-elven. He was with humans only from his 16-19 year when he was kept as a slave by the Easteling as far I do remember. So just 3 years of his puberty. Otherwise Tuor had no contact with humans whatsoever beyong seeing his cousin Turin from afar in the woods at one time.

Earendil has been raised in a Noldo city of his maternall grandfather but was still paternally House of Hador, so are his sons and his granchilden. As such there are all half-elven oeven if by blood the latter ones are almost elvish.

As such Son's of Elrond are counted as House of Hador as Aragon would be were he not as he is speciffically House od Elros.
A such they are descibed as elvenlords-like and not as elvenlords simply. Makes total sense if you consider the importance of agnatic descent for the elves.

As such if Aegnor and Andreth had a child, if would have been a Noldo of maternally human descent but by default an elf imho.
This is NOT a legal question. It is also not strictly a biological question.
If it were a strict paternal inheritance question then Elrond would have died at least 6000 years earlier.

Instead he is here still looking ageless (as Elves do), with Elves deferring to him (as Elves do to Elf-lords.) Arguments about agnatic descent are largely meaningless here, regarding his status as an Elf. In the Akallabeth we get this description that I find much more convincing than any arguments about agnatic descent
And in the glory and beauty of the Elves, and in their fate, full share had the offspring of elf and mortal, Eärendil, and Elwing, and Elrond their child.

House of Hador aside, Elrond shares the fate of Elves, making him an Elf in much the same way that Luthien became a Mortal Man (race, not gender)
 
This is NOT a legal question. It is also not strictly a biological question.

Exactly. It is a compromise between the legality (human) and biology (mixed) and nurture (elf).
Necassary exactly because those were contadicting each other and none was to take precendence over the other - so as a solution to the dilemma a choice is given to the individuals trapped in this contadiction.

House of Hador aside, Elrond shares the fate of Elves, making him an Elf in much the same way that Luthien became a Mortal Man (race, not gender)

Neither was Luthien included in the Humanity's Fall not in the humanity's Hope of Redemption at her death. She was just allowed to leave Arda as Beren was forced to do so by being human. No mortal women's gathering would allow her to become a member in their rites or customs.
 
Odola is thinking along the same lines as me: there are indications that half-elves are considered different from full elves, no matter what they choose to do in terms of their soul.
 
At one point in the writing, the Half-Elven were included in the Fellowship as a separate race, with an implication that there were many of them who lived in Rivendell. This was disgarded, and Rivendell is as we see it in the books, inhabited by elves with Elrond as master, fully regarded as one of them, particularly respected and known for his wisdom. Therefore, socially and practically (which was the original question in this thread) he is an Elf.
 
At one point in the writing, the Half-Elven were included in the Fellowship as a separate race, with an implication that there were many of them who lived in Rivendell. This was disgarded, and Rivendell is as we see it in the books, inhabited by elves with Elrond as master, fully regarded as one of them, particularly respected and known for his wisdom. Therefore, socially and practically (which was the original question in this thread) he is an Elf.
But as the text is now, not all remnants of this Half-Elven race were purged completely out from it - regardless if by oversight or by design - which leads to such question as the opening one. I have provided a coherent answer from inside of the story, not from the mere technicalities of its creation, the latter approach being exaclty what Tolkien disliked when dealing with a story.

Edit:
1) Other interesting questions connected to it are - would Turin have been allowed a choice had he married Finduilas and had not been claimed by the humans as their own? - My opinion is yes - Tuor is a foil for Turin.

2) Had Andreth's hypothetical child been allowed a choice had s/he been raised by humans only and not been claimed by the Noldor - I do think so, as then again there would be a contradiction between the legal status and nurture or primaty acculturation status.

3) Had Imrazôr not claimed his daughter for himself and allowed Mithrellas to take Gilmith with her to be raised among the elves, would then Gilmith have been allowed a choice? I think yes to this also.

4) Had Maeglin not fallen, would he be able to choose to be a Noldo in spite of his father having been a Sinda? Given the circumstances I do believe he should have been.
 
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Half-elves as another race in the Fellowship? I'm sure RPG players will love to hear that! (Ironically I don't actually like people treating half-elves as significantly different from elves, but then again, I see Men as being more similar to elves than most people do.)

Anyway, even though that must have been very early in the writing, it might actually be evidence of my suggestion. We remember that even if Tolkien abandons something, it doesn't necessarily mean he's thrown out the idea entirely. He might have decided that he shouldn't draw such a clear line between the races, and he obviously did get rid of the idea of a lot of half-elves in Rivendell. But he might still have the thought in his head of Elrond being something unique.

Hopefully we can get some opinions from a few other people?
 
It is unquestionable that Elrond was unique until JRRT wanted to have things both ways.
He was originally the biological singularity of the children of Ilúvatar, being descended from a Maia (Melisa, a child of Ilúvatar’s thought), the Vanyar (Indis -> Fingolfin -> Turgon and Elenwë -> Idril -> Eärendil), the Noldor (Finwë -> Fingolfin -> Turgon -> Idril -> Eärendil), the Sindar (Teleri) (Thingol -> Luthien-> Dior and Nimloth -> Elwing), the House of Bëor (Beren -> Dior -> Elwing), the House of Marech/Haleth (Adanel -> Beren -> Emeldir -> Beren Erchamion -> Dior -> Elwing), and the House of Hador (Tuor -> Eärendil)

When JRRT wanted Elrond to be counted among the Elf-lords and also be the father of the line of the kings of Númenor he gave him a twin: Elros, allowing consumption of his dessert while still possessing it (having his cake and eating it too )

The most important point here is that he wanted Elrond to be counted among the Elf-lords.
If functional immortality was available to a Man purely through acceptance into the ranks of Elves by those Elves then Ar-Pharazon would have been able to achieve his desired immortality by sailing East instead of West.

The choice of the Half-Elven could have been nothing short of a gift from Ilúvatar even if mediated by the Valar. Factors such as Agnatic descent and acceptance by Elves could not explain the separate fates of Elrond and Elros without such a gift.
 
Oh boy. Well i really understood it the way that it is a matter of choice, not biology.Had Elrond chosen to end his life and die "young" he would have been human, but he chose to live on and he lived in every aspect as an elf, among elves, not a mortal amongst mortals - so he has become an elf. AND HE SEEMINGLY ALREADY HAD BEEN AN ELF FOR quite a very long time when he married Celebrian and fathered three ch7ldren. That never really explained to me why his children seem to have a choice.Corey Olsen explaining Arwens choice was not the choice of half-elf but the choice of luthien explains nothing to me and frankly i do not understand it.Arwen did not die naturally of old age because she had chosen to be human.She obviously was still technically elf , she had not aged like Aragorn for example, and could inntheory still have lived on forever ... but she chose to die, out of free will.

On the descendants of Mithrellas... we simply do not know .it may well be that her child did indeed at some point make the choice and lived as human among humans and died and that was it - and we just aren'tbtold that story.
 
I don’t think Dior’s status was ever settled. He died before the Valar set the rule that the half-elven needed to choose their Incarnate tribe. I imagine that his choice was made in the halls of Mandos, but I don’t recall Tolkien ever discussing it. He married an Elf, so one might safely assume that he would have chosen to be counted with the Firstborns.
 
I don’t think Dior’s status was ever settled. He died before the Valar set the rule that the half-elven needed to choose their Incarnate tribe. I imagine that his choice was made in the halls of Mandos, but I don’t recall Tolkien ever discussing it. He married an Elf, so one might safely assume that he would have chosen to be counted with the Firstborns.
If he was even given a choice. It may be that he was simply ‘deported’ as a mortal without the benefit of an advocate. Given that Luthien was returned to life as a mortal before Dior was conceived this seems to me the most likely outcome. If his fate was otherwise we could reasonably expect to be told of his exception as we do for Eärendil and Elwing and their descendants.
 
Oh boy. Well i really understood it the way that it is a matter of choice, not biology.Had Elrond chosen to end his life and die "young" he would have been human, but he chose to live on and he lived in every aspect as an elf, among elves, not a mortal amongst mortals - so he has become an elf. AND HE SEEMINGLY ALREADY HAD BEEN AN ELF FOR quite a very long time when he married Celebrian and fathered three ch7ldren. That never really explained to me why his children seem to have a choice.Corey Olsen explaining Arwens choice was not the choice of half-elf but the choice of luthien explains nothing to me and frankly i do not understand it.Arwen did not die naturally of old age because she had chosen to be human.She obviously was still technically elf , she had not aged like Aragorn for example, and could inntheory still have lived on forever ... but she chose to die, out of free will.

On the descendants of Mithrellas... we simply do not know .it may well be that her child did indeed at some point make the choice and lived as human among humans and died and that was it - and we just aren'tbtold that story.
Mithrellas had two children, a boy and a girl.
Of course Luthien nad Arwen were still half-elf after their choice. Had they become real moral women they both would be post-menopausal at they are nad as such unable to bear children given their ages. And that would be completely contraproductive for the story.
 
Mithrellas had two children, a boy and a girl.
Of course Luthien nad Arwen were still half-elf after their choice. Had they become real moral women they both would be post-menopausal at they are nad as such unable to bear children given their ages. And that would be completely contraproductive for the story.
I disagree with your assertion. Ilúvatar could easily have granted them mortal status (and fate) without changing their past. Luthien even was rehoused, so that argument certainly doesn’t hold for her.
The biggest issue with the Unfinished Tales material is there in the name: the tales are unfinished and were not fully worked into the grand story by either JRRT or Christopher Tolkien. If they had been, then the princes of Dol Amroth probably should have been offered the choice too. As there is no mention of it the best way to work it into the grand story would be to say that the children of Mithrellas chose mortality, but that isn’t stated anywhere that has been published.
 
I disagree with your assertion. Ilúvatar could easily have granted them mortal status (and fate) without changing their past. Luthien even was rehoused, so that argument certainly doesn’t hold for her.
The biggest issue with the Unfinished Tales material is there in the name: the tales are unfinished and were not fully worked into the grand story by either JRRT or Christopher Tolkien. If they had been, then the princes of Dol Amroth probably should have been offered the choice too. As there is no mention of it the best way to work it into the grand story would be to say that the children of Mithrellas chose mortality, but that isn’t stated anywhere that has been published.
I have never claimed He has changed their past, I am the one that claims that their very natures stayed as they were before because if they were really were granted a actual human live, then both being more then 3000 years old at the time should have died the very second that this has happened. Just like Gollum would when the ring was destroyed.
Imho they were inho only granted the ability to die a human death, not the whole package with aging, menopause, osteoporosis or having their teeth decay.

I don't think Mithellas' children choose anything, their primary acculturation (nurture) and their agnatic descent were not in conflict, both being human. Just like Arwen's or Elros' children.

This aproach accounts in a simple way for all mixed couple's offsping in Tolkien's work.
A choice is given to those whose agnatic descent (human) and primary acculturation (elf) are irreconcilable.
As long as there is no contradiction, there is no choice. Simple. All cases covered.
 
If he was even given a choice. It may be that he was simply ‘deported’ as a mortal without the benefit of an advocate. Given that Luthien was returned to life as a mortal before Dior was conceived this seems to me the most likely outcome. If his fate was otherwise we could reasonably expect to be told of his exception as we do for Eärendil and Elwing and their descendants.
I think it highly unlikely that the Valar would force any fate onto a Child of Iluvatar without allowing for choice on the part of said Child. I think we should model our head-canon on his fate according to what we know of the fate of Tuor and Ëarendil. It is said, I think in the Unfinished Tales, that Tuor and Idril were given the choice to share either an Elven or a Mortal fate, and that Tuor deferred to Idril, who chose Elven to balance out the choice of Lúthien. I cannot accept that Lúthien’s child would be accorded less dignity.
While Ëarendil doesn’t seem to have been given a choice, one could say that his sacrifice was implicit in his decision to challenge the Ban, much as Frodo’s fate was sealed when he said ”I will take the Ring.” It was only after Ëarendil, when the Valar were faced with the potential for multiple generations of mixed-Fate marriages, that the concept of a choice of Fate was established.
 
I have never claimed He has changed their past, I am the one that claims that their very natures stayed as they were before because if they were really were granted a actual human live, then both being more then 3000 years old at the time should have died the very second that this has happened. Just like Gollum would when the ring was destroyed.
Imho they were inho only granted the ability to die a human death, not the whole package with aging, menopause, osteoporosis or having their teeth decay.

I don't think Mithellas' children choose anything, their primary acculturation (nurture) and their agnatic descent were not in conflict, both being human. Just like Arwen's or Elros' children.

This aproach accounts in a simple way for all mixed couple's offsping in Tolkien's work.
A choice is given to those whose agnatic descent (human) and primary acculturation (elf) are irreconcilable.
As long as there is no contradiction, there is no choice. Simple. All cases covered.
Ooh, Odola, have you ordered “The Nature of Middle-earth”? Head-canons will be needing an infusion of athelas….
 
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