Elwë

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Why not begin the casting discussion right away - we are going to need some alternatives when we get to the actual casting process later on.
I've suggested Paul Bettany as Elwë earlier, and I can't see any reason to change that right now.
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Christian Bale as Elwe? He could easily put on a great elvish voice and could speak Sindarin great. Just the hair needs some additions, as the role in Batman made him quite fit, that would make it good to make him do some good stunts. Elwe needs to be quite fair so Christian Bale might be the choice.
 

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Christian Bale as Elwe? He could easily put on a great elvish voice and could speak Sindarin great. Just the hair needs some additions, as the role in Batman made him quite fit, that would make it good to make him do some good stunts. Elwe needs to be quite fair so Christian Bale might be the choice.
I'd love to see Christian Bale as an elf, but I was thinking he'd be Fëanor or at least be given a task which would present him with greater opportunity to use his dynamic acting skills. Or do you think Elwë is the perfect choice for Bale?
 
What about Dan Stevens? He is a good actor. He could be the daring, adventurous Elwë who turns into this more stiff, greedy person. He's tall enough.
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Yes, Elwë should be our tallest elf. I mean, we can give him platform shoes and always let him stand higher than other people, but it might help to start with a tall (6'+) actor.


Paul Bettany is 6' 3-1/2".
Christian Bale and Dan Stevens are 6' even.
 
Leslie Odom Jr. ... now I know exactly what every single one of you is thinking...
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... Leslie Odom Jr. is only 5'7".

I admit it's a problem. But in case any one here was wondering how I pictured Thingol, it's pretty darn close to this.
Also, in case you didn't notice, he's black. Why would we even what to cast a black Thingol? Interesting you ask. Casting Thingol as a minority would not only diversify the elves (and our cast) but it could pay dividends in future seasons. The whole point of the Beren and Luthien story is that they are people of two different worlds coming together. Having the actors playing Beren and Luthien be of different race (... see what I did there...) would visually support this difference we will be trying to get the audience to feel. We missed this opportunity in casting Melian so why not do it here?
(And since the Numenoreans and Elrond's line are several generations down the road, it doesn't really mess up our current casting. We're technically all of African descent if we go back far enough, right?)
 
We kinda discussed this a couple of sessions ago, so let me kinda go over where the problems lie.

The decision leaned toward making the elves universally a more neutral skin tone.

Here's the difficulty. The Teleri are initially a family group, making diversity amongst them problematic.

So, why not make them all black/brown. Easy enough, right? Well, do we have that as a contrast with the lighter-colored Noldor?

That seems simple enough until you have the nearly defeated brown Sindarin "rescued" and to some degree ruled by the lighter colored Noldor who are technologically, physically, and in a way spiritually superior to the native population.

Taking race out of the equation entirely makes this a non-issue.
 
I do foresee some difficulties with casting Elwë as a different ethnic background than the other elves.

His brother is Olwë. Whose daughter Earwen marries Finarfin and becomes the mother of Finrod, Galadriel, etc. All BLOND kids. So, if we cast Elwë as someone black, we should follow through and also cast his close family members (including Celeborn, Galadriel and Arwen) accordingly.

There is no reason we can't do that. I really do have to say that - there is absolutely *no* reason we couldn't cast a black woman as Galadriel. It would be...unexpected, sure, but who is to say that elves can't have blond hair and dark skin? Elven hair color is well documented. Skin color..rather less so.


Corey Olsen's main complaint with ethnic diversity among the elves for casting was that....they all start out in one place. They are at Cuiviénen together. And *then* they split off into these different groups for various reasons. So, if the split happened along racial lines....why? Why would the Asian elves suddenly break off and make their own group? It....wouldn't make sense. It would make the divisions of the elves look not quite like splintering but more like self-segregation. And why do they even have distinct racial groups if they're all living together in one place?

So we're left with either more-or-less homogenous elves (with diversity for the Men and possibly Dwarves), or random minority families scattered throughout the elven kindreds. The Noldor, who are mostly dark-haired, could have random black or Asian families mixed into the group and it wouldn't necessarily stand out as weird. It might be harder to do that in Doriath, but should be doable. Part of me really likes that approach - having some low key diversity that the elves don't even notice. BUT...there are some implications to deal with. And one is that if all of the non-white characters are unimportant background elves without a role or speaking part....yeahhhh, that's not exactly a good thing. And if we do make use of a more diverse cast in the main roles, then we have to trace the family tree so that people look like their parents' kids. Elwë and Finwë would be the worst candidates for that, because they're related to everyone. MUCH easier with a character like Círdan, Mablung or Beleg, where there are no family members to worry about. [It would be somewhat amusing to me if Círdan were black, and every time the elves talked about him, they mentioned his beard - as that is obviously his most distinctive feature!]


Also...I really do want Elwë to be over 6' tall. We can't always make him stand on a box.
 
I understand all of the arguments against- I'm really just broadening the casting options.

Also, while the elves are mostly separated by family groups, we are not (if I remember correctly) directly showing the awakening of the first elves. This currently makes the three main familial relations among all elves in this show implied rather than affirmed. Theoretically, if the casting electorate was so inclined, when we meet the elves at Cuivienen in medias res they could be completely diversified without need of explanation. (Also lets not forget that A) this is the mythic/fantasy genre- scientific accuracy is not our main concern and B) these are elves we are talking about. To say that elven genetics work exactly the same way as human genetics would be an unnecessary assumption.)

But again, I just wanted to broaden the options.
 
I agree on most of those points - elven genetics can be a bit alien - why not? Family resemblance can be a loose concept rather than a firm goal in casting. And I would like some diversity in elven casting. I have friends who cosplay who have been told (mostly online) that they 'can't' be Tolkien elves because they are not white. Which is ridiculous. We have some diversity among the Valar; we are planning to have diversity among the Men (and not just those evil men in the East). No one has said we can't have different races among the dwarves (it's practically called for).

But there is some balking about doing this with the elves, and I'm not sure how to deal with that in a way that isn't ignoring it, tokenism, or very fake looking compared to the elvish history we are presenting. It's a conundrum.

I don't think the solution is to cast Elwë as a black man...but that does not mean I don't want to see suggestions for elven casting that aren't white - I do! So, thank you for suggesting this guy, and we'll see if we can find some options for elves that are not all lily white. Because please just no.
 
There is already great diversity with the Valar and the Maiar. Men will be quite diverse. Is there really a big need to do something very diverse for the elves? As I see it, it might look a bit forced - but of course I respect and understand what you are saying.
 
The Execs have specifically asked that we *not* include great diversity among the elves. But that does not mean that every single elf *must* be white, either. We have to figure out what we want things to look like based on the decisions they've made.
 
My interpretation of the plan was that none of the elves be white. That all of them be a more medium tone like Middle Eastern or Mediterranean peoples.
 
But yes, Trish did request Mediterranean as a basic starting point. A few of the actors who have been suggested might fit that, but....thus far, until this thread, I'd say we have a pretty white group.
 
I think Mediterranean will be fine for Noldor and a lot of the Teleri, even ideal. But for some of the supposedly blonde, white haired or red haired it will be less perfect (even with make up or wigs). I'll have to go back to the session and listen again but as I remember it, this wasn't a specific demand from the execs, more a suggestion. I'll try to find it. I'm wondering though, of the suggestions made so far - do people think they are too white? We have been discussing actors and actresses and people seem to like them, and certainly, no one's first reaction has been 'he's too white'.
 
Here is the thing:

I would be very careful about adding diversity for diversity's sake. I agree that in today's world, we must be sensitive to this issue, but not at the expense of logic or story continuity.

Tolkien started out writing a mythology for England in which he could use his language thought experiments. The elves are heavily based on those of Norse and Celtic mythology. Does that mean they have to be 100% pallid white? No. Consider this, though:
How would you respond if someone was adapting the Native American story of the Lighting and Thunder brothers to the screen and wanted to cast a white person for the sake of diversity. Or, for that matter, a black person.

Or the story of Oduduwa, an African trickster God who created the earth when his brother didn't show up to work.

Or the Monkey King of China.

I would love to see those films. I am incessantly irritated when Hollywood casts actors who look nothing like the classic idea of their characters. (Looking at you Gods of Egypt). I also find it irritating when they find it necessary to insert a white character to tell a story set in another culture's mythos. (The Forbidden Kingdom, and now, The Great Wall. Why on earth does Matt Damon have to be in ancient China?)

I found Idris Elba as Heimdall equally vexing. Not because they had a black guy playing a historically white character, but because that character was called the "whitest of the gods" by the Norse, probably the whitest people on Earth. Ever.
 
I was stuck in italics/ bold so I'll finish up here.

Let me be clear, I'm not for some kind of weird media segregation. I just do not see a necessity to go out of our way to include anachronisms.

Bear in mind that we are trying to show family lineage through the Sons of Feanor and from Melian to Luthien and on down to Arwen. We can't have our cake and eat it too. Either that's how elven genetics work, or it isn't.
 
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