Episode 145 Summary

[Tony Meade]

SESSION 145

The great ring of long debate:

• What was this debate about? It could be about what happened to the Ring, whether it was found or rolled down to the Sea, or what they should do with it if they find it.
• There could have been much debate prior to the Council, or at the untold beginning of the debate, but there haven’t been any debates that we’ve seen, only stories and revelations.
• There will be some debate later in the Council, but this cannot be to what Galdor is referring.
• It seems as though that this is a subject that those who know about the Rings of Power, this is a long-standing issue and has been discussed for many years among the Wise.
• Could Galdor be speaking lightly, agreeing with Bilbo about the need for a meal break? It’s possible he is teasing the hobbits, though it would be inappropriate at this stage of the Council.
• Frodo has an advantage over the Wise in that he is coming to knowledge of the Ring at the end, after everything that needs to be known about the Ring has already been discovered.
• For Galdor, who is generally knowledgeable, he doesn’t need a full explanation, but rather he needs to have the gaps in his knowledge filled in and to have long-standing questions answered.
• Saruman had attempted to finish these old debates with his answers, but those turned out false.
• Note: As readers, we can take this lore for granted, since it was explained in full in Chapter Two.
• Why didn’t Gandalf use the fire test to prove this is the One Ring, like he did in Bag End? It is not clear yet why, but it may be related to why Elrond doesn’t allow Bilbo to tell the Party story.
• What does Saruman mean by “his hope will cheat him” in reference to Sauron? Sauron has diverted many resources to the finding of the Ring, but that is wasted if the Valar took it away.
• While this may or may not be actually true, Saruman’s true intent is to divert everyone else from looking near the Gladden Fields, which as we learn later is where he himself is searching.
• Saruman may also be making a slip, or more likely that he is expressing the fact that he looked himself and he was unable to find the Ring, so he fully expects Sauron to get the same result.
• Do the allies believe that Sauron is undefeatable without the Ring, and when did they start to believe that? They were able to drive him from Mirkwood, but Gandalf admits this was a ruse.
• Note: The wisdom in Saruman’s words will be played out by Aragorn’s understanding that tempting Sauron with the possibility of recovering the Ring is how he gets him to empty his lands, thus his hope cheats him, but the irony is that hope also cheats Saruman in the end.
• The attacks on Gondor suggest Sauron’s military strength is something which they seem to have underestimated, and the appearance of the Witch-king on the field was unexpected.
• It’s at this point that they start to understand their relative military weakness, but it’s unclear if they are sure at this point that they will lose whether Sauron recovers the Ring or not.

Repairing Isildur’s fault:

• Note: The idea of Isildur’s heir laboring to repair Isildur’s fault may be part of the angst-ridden version of Aragorn in the films, as he is motivated to avoid repeating Isildur’s mistakes by avoiding his temptations, though in the book is motivated by his resolve to defeat Sauron.
• The fact that Aragorn calls himself Isildur’s heir is different from being his descendant, in that he sees himself as inheriting Isildur’s responsibilities along with the rest of his heritage.
• Aragorn expresses a lack of hope in going on this search, though he places faith in Gandalf. This proves correct in retrospect looking at the situation at the time, even though he succeeds later.
• What does Aragorn mean by Isildur’s fault? Elrond has already told that Isildur should not have kept the Ring but had no speculation as to why he may have done that instead of destroying it.
• Aragorn seems to go further than Elrond in suggesting that Isildur had fallen prey to the Ring.
• The fault that Aragorn specifically means is not destroying the Ring, as they didn’t understand how the Ring worked with regards to Sauron’s return or that how it might affect its bearer.
• It’s not even clear that the Numenorean exiles from knew that Sauron’s body was destroyed during the fall of Númenor, and what they wrote in the Akallabêth was later speculation.
• If they are tracking Gollum in order to gain knowledge to help in the destroying the Ring, then this helps him to repair the fault of not destroying it the first time Isildur had the chance.
• The point of this quest for Gandalf is to settle the question if this is the One Ring, so even though the objective is Gollum, all roads lead back to Isildur.
• Note: Tolkien’s writing of the fact that Isildur wanted to give up the Ring to the Wise was to answer the question as to why the shards of Narsil survived, but not the Ring, though this was written much later after The Lord of the Rings. This intention is only stated in Unfinished Tales, though this intention was never fulfilled, and Gandalf said that others may play with that idea. Isildur’s death was merciful, considering what might have happened to him if he kept the Ring.
• Does Gandalf mean different things by “Mountains of Shadow” and “fences of Mordor”? Gandalf may be making an appositive between the two, or as an explanation of the geography.
• He may also be making a distinction between the geography and the watches on the border.

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[Tony Meade]

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The long and hopeless search for Gollum:

• Where did the rumors of Gollum come from? They may have spoken to people still living in Ithilien at the time, or that this is used metaphorically of physical evidence they found of him.
• The land itself might bear rumors of Gollum, as there may be a sense of his long presence there, as other evil beings have made desolations that affect the land spiritually, such as Smaug.
• Gandalf, and possibly Aragorn, might be able to perceive this spiritual disturbance on the land.
• Note: The desolations are manifestations of the discordant intentions of the evil creature, which echo the discord in the Music of the Ainur created by Melkor, though of smaller magnitude.
• It seems as though they arrived in Mordor by process of elimination after searching Rhovanion.
• Birds and beasts might also bear rumor of him, both verbally and in their memories for Gandalf.
• Gollum might have lived for decades in or near Ithilien or the Ephel Duath, as it was over seventy years since he came out in search of the Ring after Bilbo escaped him.
• Note: This brings new context to Gollum’s knowledge in The Two Towers, as he had the chance to live there longer than Frodo or Sam or the Rangers of Ithilien have been alive. He would also have many years to get to know Shelob and understand her ways and the paths of Cirith Ungol. This ironically means that he would be the most knowledgeable guide Frodo could have found.
• The rumors of Gollum in Mirkwood, would be much older, and might be generations in the past.

On the longer search for ring lore:

• Gandalf is not abandoning his hope for finding out about the Ring, but the search for Gollum as the way to do that. Gandalf has to know about the Ring no matter what it takes to do that.
• Gollum had been the only lead that Gandalf had at the time, and he knows that he had lived long in the Misty Mountains, not far from the Dwarves’ greatest treasure in Khazad-dûm.
• Note: In real world, mythology one might expect to find a magic ring laying in a dwarf-hoard.
• That Gollum had any ring at all seems unlikely given his circumstances, especially the One Ring.
• They have no idea at this point what kind of creature Gollum is, and only Bilbo’s account of him.
• It only matters whether or not Gollum’s ring was the One Ring, not it’s whole provenance.
• Was Gandalf distracted or inattentive when he heard Saruman speak about the Rings of Power? It seems that he didn’t record his words in his memory, but his heart seems to have heard them.
• Why was Gandalf not focused on Saruman’s lore? This may be due to him thinking of the Rings as a curiosity and not relevant to their present situation, based on where he thought they were.
• Saruman, by contrast, cares deeply about the Rings for his own curiosity and purposes. He would understand the importance of details like the purpose of the gems set into the Rings.
• This may be a glimpse of the “long debate” referred to by Galdor, in that these discussions of the Rings of Power might also be part of his campaign to chair the White Council.
• Gandalf’s lack of interest in the Rings may be one reason he was given one of the Elven Rings.
• Note: This is parallel to the Catholic expression “nolo episcopari”, in which one who is appointed to be a bishop is expected to be one that is not actively seeking that position. Tolkien uses this expression as a wider statement on the pursuit of power, even in democracies. In terms of the Rings of Power, though Galadriel had sought power through the Rings, Celebrimbor may have different criteria from Círdan, who chose to whom to pass on his own Ring.
• Does Saruman know who has the Three Rings? Most likely he doesn’t, though Galadriel and Elrond having Rings seems to be an open secret. He doesn’t know that Gandalf has the third.
• Would Elrond and Galadriel have allowed Saruman to study their Rings? It’s possible, as they may see this as beneficial, but Gandalf has concealed his Ring, though Saruman suspected.
• The White Council seems to know about the Rings of Power, though didn’t speak of them.
• Saruman would recognize the power of the Rings on Rivendell and Lothlorien if nothing else.
• There would be no reason for Elrond and Galadriel to keep any information from Saruman as the head of the White Council, and his ring lore is important to prepare for the return of Sauron.
• Note: Being one of the Maiar of Aulë, it makes sense that he would be interested in this craft.
• Gandalf, by contrast, is not associated with the craft of the Rings, but more with the hearts of people, so he would not be the obvious choice to lead a council concerned with Sauron’s rings.
• Galadriel also trusted Saruman, in spite of support of Gandalf, or she wouldn’t have acquiesced.
• Why would Elrond and Galadriel choose to keep the location of the third Ring secret? It might have been at Círdan’s initiating, revealing that he gave to Gandalf but to keep it between them.
• Note: The idea that Gandalf arrived after the other Istari was a late developing idea by Tolkien.

END OF SESSION