Avi's comments

Avi Rosenthal

New Member
Any chance the red star could be Antares? It is quite south (declination -26 degrees) and I *think* it rises shortly after sunset in November.
 
A point not fully understood: Boromir's shield with heraldry device as identifier. IMHO the reason Boromir took his shield with him on the journey to Rivendell was to use it as a calling card. Why should anyone at Rivendell believe that this stranger who suddenly shows up out of the blue is the heir to the stewardship of Gondor? Same probably for why he took his horn.
 
This is probably better brought up in the discussion forums. (see below)

 
SESSION 220

Glamdring, the mate of Orcrist:
  • The mention of Orcrist seems out of place in relation to Glamdring, though serving to contextualize it in relation to the events of The Hobbit, as to why he has the sword at all.
  • Note: This reference will not pay off later in the book, and so is merely a descriptive choice.
  • This is yet another connection between Bilbo’s quest and Frodo’s quest, similar but different.
  • Note: This passage might be attributed to Bilbo, as he would be more likely to think of Thorin in relation to the sword, as well as the casual tone, which doesn’t refer to his epithet or titles.
  • Since it’s unlikely that Gandalf would carry his sword at all times, and it would have been confiscated by Saruman had he had it at Orthanc, it is likely to have been stored in Rivendell.
  • Most people would likely not be armed at all times, so carrying a sword openly would be rare.
  • Aragorn could get away with carrying a sword in this Strider persona, as it fits with his image of a mysterious and possibly dangerous rogue wandering the wilds, but even it was hidden away.
  • Gandalf would also understand that as an heirloom of Elrond’s lineage, it had a place with him.
  • Note: It’s possible that this is the first time that Frodo for the first time, which may have inspired him to write this passage, much like his meeting with Glóin reminds him of Bilbo’s quest.
  • Glorfindel would also have a close connection to the sword from this time serving in Gondolin.
  • Note: It’s possible that Orcrist was the sword of Ecthelion of the Fountain, also from Gondolin.
  • The use of “girt” makes the passage seem more formal and ceremonial about going off to war.
  • While Gandalf hasn’t officially become the White Wizard yet, he has informally taken up the role in addition to his own and is prepared to act as a leader to the Free Peoples against Sauron.
  • While it’s likely hat Gandalf is intending to go all the way to Mount Doom, that is not explicit.
Upon the breast Thorin under the Lonely Mountain:
  • There is a funereal tone about the mention of Orcrist and its place in Thorin’s grave at Erebor.
  • Up to now, connections to Bilbo’s quest have been mostly hopeful in terms of Frodo’s success and survival, but this is the first time that its consequences are mentioned, like Thorin’s death.
  • Thorin’s relationship with Orcrist is largely ceremonial, as he doesn’t use it in The Battle of the Five Armies, and since it was confiscated by Thranduil, it was only given it back posthumously.
  • The mention of the sword is not a memory of any deeds that Thorin did with it, however, but it may recall the memory of his death and sacrifice that was honored with his being buried with it.
  • Note: There may also be a subtle foreshadowing, making the connection between Thorin’s death and burial in a Dwarf-kingdom with Gandalf’s own upcoming death and sacrifice in Moria.
  • This may also serve as a reminder of Orcrist’s location and unavailability for this current quest.
  • It also points to the now-legendary status of Thorin’s restoration of the kingdom of the Lonely Mountain, which is now 77 years ago, and makes Gandalf a similar figure of legend as well.
  • This is a part of the changing way that the hobbits see Gandalf, since he was a very familiar figure to them in the Shire, but as time has gone on, they have begun to see a clearer picture.
  • Note: This will culminate in Pippin’s wonderings about Gandalf’s origins while at Minas Tirith.
  • The unevenness of the sentence clearly emphasizes the sword over the staff in this moment, as the second half is not only much longer but in a higher register than the more familiar first half.
  • Note: The word “girt” or “girded” is usually associated with things like knighting ceremonies.
  • In another connection to the earlier quest, the last time Gandalf went forth from Rivendell with the sword Glamdring, he would eventually use it to battle the Necromancer, a.k.a. Sauron.
  • All the members of the Company are going bearing magical or legendary heirloom weapons, with the exception of Legolas and Gimli, though their weapons’ lineage is simply not mentioned.
All well furnished by Elrond:
  • The mention of their fur lined clothing is a reminder that they are setting off near midwinter.
  • Note: The prominence of food with regard to Hobbits is more strongly associated with them by fans than is actually in the text, and this is aided by its emphasis in the Peter Jackson films.
  • Other characteristics of Hobbits are mentioned much more often, such as stealth and hardiness.
  • Another overemphasized idea is of Hobbits having big feet, which is only true of Mr. Proudfoot.
  • Tolkien described Hobbits as wearing boots in bad weather, and only mentions that they have furry feet and tough soles, which would not protect from frostbite in the ice and snow.
  • It's therefore almost certain that the hobbits in the company set out from Rivendell wearing boots for the cold weather, and possible that the boots were left behind before entering Moria.
  • Sam’s “hat” was probably lost, along with other clothes, in their capture in the Barrow-downs.
  • Note: The vagueness is an aspect of Tolkien’s personal descriptions, which allows the reader to impose their own preconceptions onto them. Tolkien spoke about the limitations of stage and screen adaptations in that they must make concrete what is left to the imagination of a reader.
  • This furnishment of warm clothing is one of final pieces of hospitality from Elrond to the company, and it’s clear that these have been prepared during their time there for this occasion.
  • This kind of gift-giving is associated with lordship, though usually it would include arms and armor, but since they have been provided with those already, he makes a more homely gift.
  • Note: Elrond’s last act of hospitality will be revealed in the gift of the miruvor later in the story. Galadriel and Celeborn’s gifts in Lothlórien will be in that same tradition of lordly gift-giving.
END OF SESSION
Prof. Olsen annoyed me at the end. Elrond was not acting as a Lord. He was acting as a quartermaster.
 
It's not so much about Sam as about the others NOT being so conscientious about what needs to be taken along. Also an implicit criticism of a society with more than one social class.
 
It's not so much about Sam as about the others NOT being so conscientious about what needs to be taken along. Also an implicit criticism of a society with more than one social class.
You really need to take these discussion topics to the discussion forums. This forum is intended to be a record for later use.
 
Gina Birk's ignorance, in the chat for this session, of who Manwe and the Valar are, illustrates my contention that this discussion of LOTR should be limited, to the extent possilbe, to just LOTR and what Tolkien published before LOTR, i.e., The Hobbit, and should ignore the rest of the legendarium. Although my main motive is that I want the discussion to get to the end of LOTR in my lifetime.
 
Okay Avi, I’ve been polite so far, but here’s where that ends. This is not your private platform for venting about how you think things aren’t being run correctly. If you don’t like how the discussion is being managed, you need to take that to the course discussion forums, or with Dr. Olsen himself.

I definitely won’t tolerate you or anyone else being insulting towards other participants. I’ve reported your reply to the forum admins. Do not post on this forum again. This is not the place for class discussion, and certainly not for entitled, toxic behavior.
 
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