Tony Meade
Active Member
SESSION 22
Comment on Gandalf’s treatment of Gollum:
Comment on Gandalf’s treatment of Gollum:
- Did Gandalf threaten to torture, or actually torture, Gollum to get his story?
- It is unlikely that Gandalf, a pupil of Nienna, would resort to torture, even for the greater good.
- There is some amount of pro-Gandalf bias that might skew that reading.
- “Putting the fear of fire” and “wringing” out the story is a mixed metaphor, which means that it is unlikely that he means this literally.
- We know that Gollum has a fear of fire anyway, so Gandalf doesn’t need to do too much.
- Gandalf may have only needed to show him fire in order bring on that fear.
- There is a general moral issue at hand here; in Tolkien’s moral universe means matter over ends.
- Using wicked means to achieve a good end never works out well.
- There is not enough data in this conversation to know for sure.
- More will be revealed when Frodo is put in a similar position in The Two Towers.
- In the context of Gollum’s near ruination, but not total ruination, Gandalf may be speaking Gollum’s own language, as Gollum can understand threats but not appeals.
- There’s no reason to believe that Frodo did not stipulate that the Gamgee’s and others residence on Bagshot Row as part of the sale.
- It’s important that after Lotho turns out the residents and digs up Bagshot Row, this is held as a grievance by the Gaffer.
- Lotho starts out by holding to Shire law, but later starts to run roughshod over it when Sharkey’s men become more involved.
- The Gaffer does lay the blame for what happens on Bagshot Row at Frodo’s feet as an unintended consequence, but praises Frodo’s willingness to make amends.
- We know that Hobbit legal requirements and paperwork to be generally more elaborate than that of humans, so this would be something that would come up in procedures.
- How many people would know Fatty Bolger by appearance? Probably none, as he has never been to Buckland, aside from perhaps some of the young Brandybucks.
- How many people would recognize Frodo on sight? A lot of people, as he grew up there.
- How distinctive are Frodo’s clothing to play that part? They would be distinguishable by class.
- Class distinctions in clothes are usually visible at a distance, and the richness of the clothing, and his foreignness, being from Hobbiton, would be distinctive.
- Fatty would have to avoid coming to the door or otherwise being seen close up.
- Note: Frodo has been gone from Buckland permanently for about 29 years. He moved to Bag End and became Bilbo’s heir when he was 21.
- Is Pippin’s flippant attitude on the road may be a ruse, as he does something similar after being captured by the orcs.
- Pippin already knows about the Ring and Frodo’s quest, so he is playing dumb to some extent.
- This doesn’t necessarily mean that he was faking his enjoyment of the walking party.
- He has also demonstrated that he doesn’t fully understand the significance, especially in light of the unexpected arrival of the Black Riders.
- Pippin is encouraging Frodo to make friends with Farmer Maggot as a joke, as he knows that the conspiracy will be revealed within the next day.
- Pippin is treating these reveals as an extended practical joke. He’s being witty rather than deceptive.
- Flashback to The Hobbit: Bilbo has several prophetic dreams during his journey.
- In the Eagles aerie, he has a dream about looking for something in Bag End he can’t find. This is not explained as to the significance. This seems to be personal and symbolic.
- In Beorn’s house, he dreams of dancing bears. He also dreams about what is about to happen on the front porch of the goblin cave. In these cases, he’s dreaming about some that is actually happening at nearly the same time.
- Smaug also has a prophetic dream about a small warrior slaying him. This may be a racial memory of Glaurung being slain by Túrin.
- Note: In the first draft of The Hobbit, Tolkien has Bilbo sneak down a third time and slay Smaug by stabbing him in the weak spot in chest, which survives in Smaug’s dream.
- The sound snuffling is surely a reference to the Black Riders searching for him.
- The forest being referenced is unclear. It might be a memory of Bilbo’s stories of Mirkwood, though it is likely to be the Old Forest, as this is on his mind, and is a current event.
- The sea imagery with reference to the trees is significant.
- He is not viewing these first images from a tower; it is a high window, which for a hobbit, could simply be a second-story window.
- It is in the context of the twofold danger of the Riders and the Forest that he hears the noise.
- The noise is initially connected with the forest, but he realizes it is the sea.
- Why does Frodo dream about the sea? Does he have the sea-longing?
- It is only at this point that he sees the tower, which requires him to turn from east to west, and away from the direction of his upcoming adventure.
- Frodo finds himself in a dark heath, which is an ominous landscape, as a heath is a landscape that has been destroyed.
- The tower that he sees is the only bright thing in the whole landscape of his dream.
- The transition between the forest and the sea is the most important moment in the dream.
- The first images are simply an anxiety dream, but the tower and the sea seem prophetic.
- It is possible that this tower is one of the elvish towers out to the west of the Shire towards the sea, because he has never seen the Tower Hills himself.
- The significance of the tower image is far greater than its actual location. It matters as a dream image first, before we know if it is an actual physical place.
- There is no current event happening in the Tower Hills, so this is in a different category.
- The dream of the sea seems to intervene to overcome Frodo’s fear of the Forest and beginning the journey ahead.
- We don’t know what the source of these dreams are for Bilbo or Frodo but knowing The Silmarillion we can make a guess at this one.
- Ulmo is the prime subject, since Frodo is sleeping next to a major river and dreaming of the sea.
- These are similar to the experiences of Finrod and Turgon, and of his appearance to Tuor.
- Note: Ulmo was more in the business of giving hope in the early versions of the Quenta Silmarillion and is always known as the one who never gives up on Middle-earth.
- Symbolically, that tower could also possibly be in Valinor, so that he is still facing east.
- We also know that Frodo has been dreaming about mountains, more things that he has never seen. These could even be the mountains of Mordor, and this causes the Valar’s intervention.
- Note: This conjures up the image of “The Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl” from the Book of Lost Tales material, which is highly evocative.
- What is this white tower made from? Tolkien has referenced pearl before, but not ivory.
- The only action that Frodo actually takes in the dream is to interpret the sound as the sea before moving toward the tower.
- Frodo chooses his desire over his fear in the end and is given a vision of his ultimate fate. This is almost certainly a message of comfort from the Valar from a longer view of the future.
- In conclusion, this is a different kind of dream from the visionary and clairvoyant dreams that Bilbo had on the journey to Erebor.
- The light in the sky and the sound of thunder in the dream could be a signal of the presence of Varda and Manwë, but it turns out also to be Merry with a candle knocking on the door.
- This could be the most portentous part of the dream, but it is also mundane. It is both.
- Frodo’s still being shaken after waking up shows that this was emotionally significant for him.
- Frodo has also overslept everyone, which underscores the immersion he had in the dream.
- Merry is teasing Frodo by pointing out that Pippin is up before him.
- Frodo is feeling just as foggy as Merry describes it outside.