Episode 5 "What Gandalf Knew, When" Followup Chat

[amysrevenge]

I'm so happy about this discussion.

Like Corey mentioned, my working hypothesis right up until yesterday was that Gandalf's evasiveness and... weirdness in the Shadows in the Past chapter was because he was embarrassed that he hadn't solved the mystery sooner. But now upon closer reading, it is so much more interesting and compelling that it's actually because he feels guilty for leaving BB and FB in such a precarious position with a "nuclear bomb" in their house.

This new, better reading makes Gandalf both more competent intellectually (*of course* he knew from the first instant he was dealing with a Great Ring, and he even strongly suspected the correct answer when he otherwise *knew* that it couldn't possibly be correct), and more complex emotionally.

 

[NotACat]

This new, better reading makes Gandalf both more competent intellectually (*of course* he knew from the first instant he was dealing with a Great Ring, and he even strongly suspected the correct answer when he otherwise *knew* that it couldn't possibly be correct), and more complex emotionally.

Indeed. Something that occurred to me was the likely reaction of Saruman if he found out that a lowly Hobbit was in possession of the One Ring.

Remember how Gandalf was reluctant to risk taking it away from Bilbo? I'm not at all convinced that Saruman would be anything like so careful: he would be so convinced that he was doing the right thing that he would blast ahead and take it anyway "for the Hobbit's own good", exactly what Gandalf avoided so assiduously.

 

[amysrevenge]

Oh yeah, about Saruman, and the question of "if he still trusts Saruman, why wasn't he telling Saruman everything 50+ years ago?"

OK, so he trusts Saruman, but he also *knows* Saruman. Saruman is the head of the Order, leader of the White Council, expert on the Elven Rings, and a bit of a blowhard and a jerk.

Coming up to Saruman with "Umm, I have this mortal friend, right, and he found a ring. It seems like it might be making him live a bit longer and I've got this gut feeling that it's a Great Ring, but since it's not safe for us to meddle with those directly I'm letting him keep it for now in secret. Anyway, according to you the Great Rings are all accounted for, so for which ring have you erroneously accounted?"

That seems like a bad idea. The one thing he knows about Saruman is that Saruman is always right. If Saruman says they are all accounted for, then they are all accounted for. Stories of a halfing's extended life won't convince Saruman he's wrong - this is one scene from the Hobbit films that I think they nailed: the contempt with which Saruman dresses down Gandalf's "evidence" from Radagast and the woodsmen perfectly captures what I imagine his response would be like to Gandalf coming to him with what he has pre-Shadows of the Past discussion. "And after all, what do we have? A long-lived halfling, from a long-lived family, with a dairy-based analogy about his ennui, and a magical ring, of which many were crafted. It's not really so much, now, is it?"

That changes, though, once Gandalf has seen the fiery runes on the ring. This is evidence that even Saruman can't deny. And that's why *this* is the point at which Gandalf (in the immediate future) will go to Saruman with his evidence to make a plan. Now Saruman will listen and agree.

 

[Milthaliel]

The concept of Gandalf feeling guilty about what happened is very much in keeping with the deep love he has for the hobbits. He's the only one of the Wise that seems to care what goes on in that little corner of the world, and I love the idea that it's a sort of "full" relationship. There are those who wouldn't bother to consider them worthy of something like a guilty conscience. "Stupid" little people that aren't useful for anything are holding something dangerous? So what? But Gandalf feels a sense of responsibility, and it endears him to me even more.