Evil cannot create; How were dragons made?

[Haerangil]

As far I understand the Ainur are personal being with much power over Arda and they come from the Timeless Halls, form outside, nature spirits go the other way round, they are personalized nature's forces as such an expression of Arda's power itself. They do not precede Arda. Arda is their source.

I agree.But yet, a spirit of the creation, been there before or thereafter, is a being, an Eäla.Now i ask myself, if one Eäla can split off a part of itself... why can't anoother too?

 

[Odola]

I totally see the point that a lot of Questions... are not THAT much of a question within lotr or hobbit, but become such at first withinnthe Silmarillion, because that us a type of text which works in terms of things lime cosmology.

But... in legendarium terms, not literature-chrono,ogy terms, the cosmology dies buold up and encompass also these two works that have little cosmo within themselves... so
I guess it is the question where do we stand now and from what point of view do we want our answers. I ALWAYS SAW MYSELF AS A spectator or reader, listener, ouside the legendarium who tries to put together a picture from the sources he has.

cannot aggre. SIL works in mythological terms and in mythology dragons can just be dragons. In The Hobbit Smaug is a person and Bilbo treat him as such.

 

[Odola]

I agree.But yet, a spirit of the creation, been there before or thereafter, is a being, an Eäla.Now i ask myself, if one Eäla can split off a part of itself... why can't anoother too?

Eäla is new term for me, but if nature spirits are just personalized forms of nature forces, those can shift shapes and rearange themselves quite fluently. Nature is fertile, live brings foth live. All adds up for me. Sauron is not "really alive'.

 

[Flammifer]

I agree Haerangil, It is a question of from what point of view or perspective do we want to look.

I prefer to look from different perspectives. One perspective is to see TLOTR as a work of art on its own and to view it from itself. If you read JRRT's famous lecture, 'Beowulf, The Monster and the Critics', I think that is how JRRT would suggest you read TLOTR.

The other perspective is to look at the whole Legendarium. From this perspective, TLOTR is just a part of a larger (but considerably more problematic) whole. The Legendarium is more problematic, because it is not a finished work of art, but rather a collection of thoughts and writings which vary and change across time, and which were never finalized and completed.

I have nothing against either perspective. I like both. But, I dislike muddling them up. When doing a close reading of TLOTR, I would prefer to keep intrusions from the Legendarium point of view to a minimum. If one wants to take The Legendarium point of view, better to do a close reading of The Legendarium.

 

[Haerangil]

Hmm...

Interesting.So... Nature spirits such as Bombadil or Goldberry are "alive" but do not have souls? And ... angelic powers such as Sauron or Morgoth do have souls but are not really alive? I also believe that, in the famous dialogue between Turin and Glaurung... Glaurung is a person and treated as a person.

 

[Odola]

Hmm...

Interesting.So... Nature spirits such as Bombadil or Goldberry are "alive" but do not have souls? And ... angelic powers such as Sauron or Morgoth do have souls but are not really alive? I also believe that, in the famous dialogue between Turin and Glaurung... Glaurung is a person and treated as a person.

I thought Bombadil was an Ainur and Goldberry a nature spirit. It seems to be a mixed marriage.

 

[Haerangil]

Ok, i understood both as nature spirits, but in the end i guess we do not really know what they are.I believe Goldberry is much more likely a Maia than Bombadil.

 

[Odola]

Ok, i understood both as nature spirits, but in the end i guess we do not really know what they are.I believe Goldberry is much more likely a Maia than Bombadil.

Cannot be, because she is the River's daughter. Maiar are not children of anyone. But Bombadil is called Fatherless. So who is the Maia here? ;-)

 

[Haerangil]

So a Maiarinde to coin the term, if maybe the river and her possible father were Maiar or maybe a Maia and an Elf or human perhaps..However i still hold the possibility that she is the riverwoman's daughter in the same way Namo, Irmo and Nienna are siblings or who else were brothers? Salmar and Amillo? I guess this also does not imply they had physical parents but their minds and closeness are like those of siblings.

I still think both are a category of their own.Not Maiar but somehow spirits of creation/arda/nature/eä itself, part of the world.Sadly Tolkien as far as i know never wrote on the subject of a possible worldspirit, that would be interesting, to theorize if they could be split parts of such.

 

[Odola]

Here a gliding lizard - something which could inspire Morgoth to expand on the idea.

Flying dragon lizard a true gliding reptile

Like something out of a fiction novel, the flying dragon lizard is one of the only true gliding reptiles

www.australiangeographic.com.au

Note that none of the limbs is affected, the mebrane hangs on extension of the ribs.

 

[Haerangil]

I guess he knew lots of Animals... and hated them all!

 

[Jim Deutch]

But i like the idea that ALL souls are already there and just wait to get sucked into some physical being.

It's really interesting how vastly different attitudes can be, even among people with such similar taste as to all love JRRT. I, personally, find the idea of a warehouse of all the souls there will ever be totally repellent. Ok for a toy universe, maybe -- a child's construct -- but insufficient and inappropriate for anything Real and True. I can't pinpoint it, but the concept seems to abrogate free will somehow: it is certainly a powerful predestination, if the total number of souls to the end of the universe is already counted up at the beginning.

I'm not condemning you for liking the concept, of course. Tastes vary. I just wanted to comment on how mine differs.

 

[Haerangil]

I understand why, but are you familiar with the jewish concept of tzimtzum?

I believe if Illuvatar created all souls in a place beyond time and creation itself, and he gave them freedom, then that freedom incorporates the possibility these souls would make wrong decisions, immature as they are, and they may even be abused.To prevent this there are for example Guardians, who were there in pre-creation, who take a look after them... but we know at last one of these guardians , being free in his choice, went totally rogue.

However these are, as interesting as i find them, not my personal beliefs and i keep both separate.

 

[Jim Deutch]

are you familiar with the jewish concept of tzimtzum?

Actually, that's pretty much a "no", but this gives me a very big clue as to WHY I am uncomfortable with the warehouse of souls concept. As a secular Jew, I have been accosted by Chasids and other mystics and told I am missing the greatest experiences of my life. Which I resent. I've had little exposure to the Kabbalah, and really, I want no more. I prefer my fantasy without pretense.

 

[Haerangil]

Warehouse already imlplies a market or value. I think of it as freedom -both positive and negative assumptions.

..,do not touch the Kabbalah until you're about 40... it is a preparation for death/slowly parting with this aspect of live... as i understand it.

 

[Rachel Port]

A man should not study Kabbalah until he is established firmly on earth, with a family and work.

Luira's creation story has all kinds of meanings, but Tzimtzim means that when all there was was God, God needed to contract itself to make space for the universe. I think I commented on the story of the broken vessels when I first started at this forum, but I don't remember the context. But I don't know how you get the idea of all souls from that.

I don't understand Kabbalah or any kind of mysticism. Like Jim, I a rather secular Jew, but I love studying. I get uncomfortable here sometimes when the conversation gets theological and clearly Christian. Luckily, I've managed to read LOTR for over 50 years without a Christian framework or seeing it as symbollic of the Gospel. And without going deeply into the mythology of Middle-earth.

 

[Haerangil]

I have to admit i read the Kabbala way before my time -yes, it does make one quite a bit crazy, therefore the age advice.

But i referred to it because of the idea that god is/was in all and then removed himself from creation (from the perspective of the created). So all souls are made and there and everything is made and there.Therefore it is unfair to blame god for the creation of a single soul which then gets bent and transformed by a demonic power -it is not god's fault, these things may happen withinnthe world of freedom he created.

At last so was my thinking when i wrote that commend -i could be wrong.

 

[Odola]

I have to admit i read the Kabbala way before my time -yes, it does make one quite a bit crazy, therefore the age advice.

But i referred to it because of the idea that god is/was in all and then removed himself from creation (from the perspective of the cretated). So all souls are made and there and everything is made and there.Therefore it is unfair to blame god for the creation of a single soul which then gets bent and transformed by a demonic power -it is not god's fault, these things may happen withinnthe world of freedom he created.

At last so was my thinking when i wrote that commend -i could be wrong.

This perspective sounds fine for Tolkien elves, actually.

 

[Flammifer]

This thread seems to have wandered far from it's origins concerning the creation of dragons.

I wonder if a quote by Ursula LeGuin, from the intro to 'Tales of Earthsea' might be appropriate here?

"Authors and wizards are not always to be trusted: nobody can explain a dragon."

 

[Rachel Port]

But i referred to it because of the idea that god is/was in all and then removed himself from creation (from the perspective of the created). So all souls are made and there and everything is made and there.Therefore it is unfair to blame god for the creation of a single soul which then gets bent and transformed by a demonic power -it is not god's fault, these things may happen withinnthe world of freedom he created.

If the vessels hadn't shattered the world would have been perfect.

I still don't see a reason to see all souls having been created at that time. Creation leaves room for growth and development, not to mention evolution, as I understand it. But again, I don't claim to understand Kabbalah.