Evil cannot create; How were dragons made?

S

Seth Bartley

New Member
A few episodes back, we were discussing the origin of Orcs.
(i posted a theory on the course discussion forum which i will not repeat here.)
however it sparked a question.
Tolkien is clear that evil cannot create, only corrupt.
He is also clear that Melkor made the dragons.
He is also clear that dragons ARE evil.

They are more than bestial creatures (after all, they talk)
Do they have souls? are they biological manifestations of evil?

In that line, aren't trolls and ogres evil critters too? how were they made?
 
Seth Bartley said:
A few episodes back, we were discussing the origin of Orcs.
(i posted a theory on the course discussion forum which i will not repeat here.)
however it sparked a question.
Tolkien is clear that evil cannot create, only corrupt.
He is also clear that Melkor made the dragons.
He is also clear that dragons ARE evil.

They are more than bestial creatures (after all, they talk)
Do they have souls? are they biological manifestations of evil?

In that line, aren't trolls and ogres evil critters too? how were they made?
Click to expand...

As far I do understand dragons are corrupted reptiles, even if they can talk. Maybe possessed animals like the giant spiders?
Trolls could be corrupted stone spirits - which would make them a little like Yavanna's ents. Do not think ents have souls, sprits yes, but souls?
Have we even met ogres in Tolkien? Do not remember them?
 
Ogres are just mentioned in lost tales and briefly referred to in the hobbit.In the early mythology an Ogress named Ulbandi was Morgoth's mate and mother of Gothmog the Balrog, so at last i am sure they were not corrupted dwarves.

After all i am not sure if Ents or any other creature, like the great eagles, have souls or if Tolkien makes a hard difference between soul and spirit.I cannot recall his later Ealar-Fana--hroa cosmology from memory. In the Silmarillion i remember Eru gives souls to the dwarves and permits them to live, after which i think Elbereth or Manwe declares that there will be ents to watch the Olvar and Great Eagles.I understood this in a way that just like Eru gave the dwarves souls he also permitted souls to some Fairy animals such as the eagles and perhaps some others such as Huan, but at last to some Olvar who then became the Ents.

Trolls are terribly stupid, some few perhaps a bit more clever than animals, or maybe, as Tolkien speculated in one commentary, stone possessed by "goblin-spirit" - whatever that means.Maybe their fëa was similar to that of orcs but their hroä not.

Dragons are a mystery.It was said that Glaurung was animated by an evil spirit that dwellt inside him... it was also said the evil spirit of Morgoth resided within him.I always wondered how that could be interpreted... was Glaurung a split-off morgoths own "essence", like some part of his self he was able to split off and put into the dragon?Or did he put an enslaved Maia spirit or demon inside?

Then... why do Glaurungs descendants the lesser drakes seem intelligent? Smaug at last seems pretty clever and self-aware.Ungolianths descendants had very limited intelligence...,even Shelob was in her ways quite clever, but still a mere beast.
 
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This is an endlessly fascinating question to which, regrettably, even Tolkien himself never came to a satisfactory resolution. The nature of orcish souls especially vexed him. We had an extensive discussion of the nature of orcs, the relationship of elvish minds and bodies, and Tolkien's later conceptions of creation during the Mythgard Academy class on Morgoth's Ring. I recommend giving the recorded classes a listen. They should be available from the Signum YouTube channel.
 
In a cosmic order where evil cannot create, the dragons would have to be a corruption of something. Exactly what they were originally is not clear, but this is also not clear with many other of Morgoth's creatures. The 'fell beasts' given to Sauron's Nazgul are described in a way that hints they might be pterosaurs of some sort, maybe even actual pterodactyls (a later and more specialized form). Could dragons also be some sort of 'age of dinosaurs' creatures that Morgoth found, then altered and enhanced?
 
One possible interpretation of Dragons, that might be 'consistent' with 'The Legendarium', is that they are Morgoth's fallen Maia (like Balrogs), except, instead of taking the shape of Balrogs they take the shape of Dragons. What Morgoth might have 'created' could be the concept of Dragons. First the concept of flightless Dragons, then the concept of winged Dragons (a concept which seemingly was never applied to the Balrogs).

Since Maia are beings of spirit, who can cloak themselves in whatever body they wish, the 'creation' of Dragons, was not a creation of their 'beings' but a creation of the shape, form, and attributes of the cloaking body?

I think this is the most logical supposition about the 'creation' of Dragons, which fits with 'The Legendarium'. Any other speculations?
 
In that case, dragons would probably not be bound to a particular form. Now, this is actually true of Chinese dragons. They are shapeshifters and can even take human form. They are not necessarily evil, either. More like 'forces of nature' that may or may not be hostile to humans. But anyway, back to Tolkien dragons. Maiar are not really 'dead' when you kill them. They can eventually form a new body. Is there any sign of Tolkien dragons shapeshifting, or especially 'coming back' after being killed?

It seems to me that the most likely 'stock' that dragons would come from would be some sort of 'primal' things like those Gandalf speaks of encountering in the depths when fighting the balrog. Things that just don't exist here on the surface of the world, that don't have anything to do with the kinds of creatures we know. Morgoth could have discovered such creatures and captured some to apply his will/power to and make something that would serve him. This is rather Lovecraftian... :) but it makes the most sense.
 
Interesting speculation Forodan. That could work.

However, while Maiar might not be 'bound' to their forms, they seem very reluctant to change them (we don't hear much about that) and, when a form is 'killed' it seems to take them quite a while to generate a new one (witness Sauron).

As for Dragons 'coming back' after being killed? Quite likely they did? They were most likely mostly killed in the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age, but there were plenty a while later to pester the Dwarves?

We have no evidence that Dragons in TLOTR reproduce.
 
Oh yes, they reproduce, Glaurung is named father of the Dragons, but even if that was a metaphor, we know Smaug was a very young Dragon when he sacked Erebor...
To me 4his means he must have been born or hatched sometime very long after Angband's fall...
 
"Father of the Dragons" could just mean the first of the Dragons?

Was Smaug born or hatched long after Angbad's fall, or, re-born into a new dragon body?

I don't insist on this speculation about the nature of Dragons, but it avoids the problems outlined in the original post, and I don't think there is any particularly strong contrary evidence?
 
Certainly a suggestive passage No One in Particular,

What is the context of the passage? Who says it? I doubt that many of the inhabitants of Middle-earth would know about Fallen Maiar (if they were the beings manifested as Dragons). If that was the case, and Dragons being re-embodied centuries after the War of Wrath were appearing on the Withered Heath, people might logically suppose that that was where Dragons bred, even though that is not exactly what was occurring?
 
Thorin, in The Hobbit, when he and Gandalf are discussing the Map prior to Gandalf producing the Key.

No, I don't imagine Thorin does know about the Maiar. He just knows where the dragons came from. Like I said, not conclusive; but makes you go hmmm.
 
Of course, Maiar could breed. Melian had a daughter, Luthien. (In some earlier JRRT conceptions, Valar could breed and have children, though he seems to have abandoned this later).

So I suppose it is possible that Fallen Maiar, in the form of Dragons might breed and produce Maia children who take the form of Dragons on the Withered Heath?
 
Flammifer said:
Of course, Maiar could breed. Melian had a daughter, Luthien. (In some earlier JRRT conceptions, Valar could breed and have children, though he seems to have abandoned this later).

So I suppose it is possible that Fallen Maiar, in the form of Dragons might breed and produce Maia children who take the form of Dragons on the Withered Heath?
Click to expand...
oh wow, that's a facinating point.
and that opens soo many cosmological questions.
(is creating children for them the same as sauron "birthing" the ring? investing/divesting some of their power into these new creations? or are they new creations granted new power by the Creator? option 2 would seem to contradict the conservation of energy understanding of magic in Tolkien fantasy, and rubs contrary to the themes of entropy.) Doesn't Melkor poor some of his power into his creations? (his children) similar to when Sauron beefs up the Nazgul 2.0 by investing them with some of his power?)

so many questions that CANNOT be answered with the information available it seems :( . Any attempt to do so would be nothing more than fanfiction.
 
Haerangil said:
Ogres are just mentioned in lost tales and briefly referred to in the hobbit.In the early mythology an Ogress named Ulbandi was Morgoth's mate and mother of Gothmog the Balrog, so at last i am sure they were not corrupted dwarves.

After all i am not sure if Ents or any other creature, like the great eagles, have souls or if Tolkien makes a hard difference between soul and spirit.I cannot recall his later Ealar-Fana--hroa cosmology from memory. In the Silmarillion i remember Eru gives souls to the dwarves and permits them to live, after which i think Elbereth or Manwe declares that there will be ents to watch the Olvar and Great Eagles.I understood this in a way that just like Eru gave the dwarves souls he also permitted souls to some Fairy animals such as the eagles and perhaps some others such as Huan, but at last to some Olvar who then became the Ents.

Trolls are terribly stupid, some few perhaps a bit more clever than animals, or maybe, as Tolkien speculated in one commentary, stone possessed by "goblin-spirit" - whatever that means.Maybe their fëa was similar to that of orcs but their hroä not.

Dragons are a mystery.It was said that Glaurung was animated by an evil spirit that dwellt inside him... it was also said the evil spirit of Morgoth resided within him.I always wondered how that could be interpreted... was Glaurung a split-off morgoths own "essence", like some part of his self he was able to split off and put into the dragon?Or did he put an enslaved Maia spirit or demon inside?

Then... why do Glaurungs descendants the lesser drakes seem intelligent? Smaug at last seems pretty clever and self-aware.Ungolianths descendants had very limited intelligence...,even Shelob was in her ways quite clever, but still a mere beast.
Click to expand...

Interesting insights. thank you!
i had not considered the difference between spirits and souls in Tolkien lore (especially your example of the Ents) (they too talk...albeit slowly, but do not seem to be identified among the races 'gifted with a soul' at birth) Eagles likewise. So i guess we can't assume the Ability to speak means anything.

I had not heard Tolkien's commentary on trolls, thank you (i agree; his description does seem characteristically enigmatic)
 
Anthony Lawther said:
Does that then create the Dragon problem, parallel to the Orc problem?
Click to expand...
Having read through the MANY insightful posts, i don't think so.
There are several possible explanations presented which seem logical to me and in line with (my novice) understanding of Tolkien lore.

I think the only creatures we need to worry about a 'problem' with are those gifted with souls by the Creator.
Any children of the Maiar would just be their creations (like Ents/Eagles/Water spirits/etc)

to my knowledge the Orc problem revolves around the idea that they are the corruption of beings with souls.
Thus the question of do they need pity.
There is no need to pity a creature like the hurons.
(no matter how much vengeance that may wish to inflict upon hobbits)
(like it's sad to see a lion eat a gazelle, but the lion is not evil and we do not pity the prey, it's natural)
 
"the Ents were either souls sent to inhabit trees, or else that slowly took the likeness of trees owing to their inborn love of trees"
-Tolkien, letter 247

There is a difference between the children of Eru and Ealar. The Children of Eru have a Feä and a hroä, which i understand as spirit/soul and physical body.

Valar and Maiar are eälar.Ents and eagles seem to be treated at last as equals to the children of Eru, or they might be descendants of incarnate eälar...

The Eälar define themselves via spiritual existence only, but they may take a fána or physical form which is like "clothing" for their soul. If they continue to live in their fana, eating, drinking, having sex etc. They can become like "incarnates", they can have children.

-how i understand it and if i remember correctly.
 
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