Haerangil
Well-Known Member
well i just guess i'm talking about far darker hairtones than you seem to have in mind...
i mean darker than mel gibson in braveheart.
Feanoreans
- Thread starter Marielle
- Start date
i mean darker than mel gibson in braveheart.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Although it does rather seem as if red and blonde hair are dominant traits amongst elves rather than recessive.
Well, we have Finwë and Míriel, who had dark and silver hair, respectively. Their son Fëanor had dark hair, which could indicate that dark hair is a dominant trait. He and red haired Nerdanel had sons, and so passed on red, silver and dark hair traits. Of the sons, three (or perhaps I should say two, if the twins are identical) have red hair - but Maedhros is probably partially dark haired. Three sons are dark haired (Magolor, Caranthir and Curufin), so dark hair is at least as dominant as red. Then we have Celegorm, who has 'fair' hair. Perhaps that means blonde, but what did that come from? Perhaps it means sand coloured. In any case: Fëanor carried both dark and silver hair traits, and we know of Nerdanel that her father had red hair but nothing about her mother's hair (but most Noldor had dark hair). 'Fair hair' could be a mix of red and silver, with a touch of light brown.
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No, actually, it doesn't.
If two people have a recessive trait, then their children will ALL have that recessive trait, as they are guaranteed to get recessive alleles from both parents. So when Finarfin (blond) and Earwen (presumably also blond/possibly silver) have all blond children, that is evidence of blond being a RECESSIVE trait, not dominant. (For traits controlled by a single gene, anyway.)
Likewise, when the red hair of Mahtan skips a generation and shows up in Nerdanel's children, that is the behavior of a recessive, not dominant trait.
Elven genetics can't actually be studied, of course. But we do have some patterns of inheritance that can be observed in the (admittedly limited) data we have, and as far as I've seen, elven hair color genetics works the same as human, except for the prevalence of 'silver' as a natural hair color rather than an effect of aging.
And yes, I am more than willing to family tree/ Punnett Square this thing up for your consideration.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Hence why I had suggested Maedhros have auburn hair.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Ah, I had thought that Finwë was also dark-haired, which does not mean Fëanor could not have red-haired genes somewhere, but does reduce the likelihood.
Also, you probably know better than I what the timeline was for the writing of any of this. Dominant/recessive genetics may not have been known. Or cared about.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Well, what do we know of Nerdanel's mother?
Well, I can honestly say that I know nothing about her mother. I can only guess that if Nerdanel has brown hair and her father red hair and that is a recessive trait, her mother could have brown hair as well.
Heredity was certainly known in Tolkien's time; genetics not so much. But yes, he would have had access to info about the heredity of human hair colors, though the short answer would have been 'it's complicated.'
Nerdanel is said to have reddish-brown hair, which is why I used 'brown hair with red highlights' as the description in the casting. Certainly, we could also make her straight-up red headed, if we wanted to. We know nothing of Nerdanel's mother, but sure, we can assume she's brown-haired if we need to.
Finwë is dark haired, as is Fëanor. Míriel, however, is silver-haired. Silver seems to be similar to blond as far as inheritance patterns go, but there are some assumptions on my part there. So, if it's recessive, then yes, Fëanor *does* have a recessive allele, which he passes on to about half his kids (the other half have his dark hair). Because Nerdanel has the red trait, it shows up as red, not silver, in their kids. (Finwë being a carrier of the recessive red-hair trait that is masked by his dark hair is not really that much of a stretch.)
[The way red hair works is that you must have the recessive blond trait (not-black), and then there is a separate gene for the red color - blond is dominant, red recessive.]
Silver hair is just 'even less pigment than blond' the way grey eyes are 'even less pigment than blue'. So, it would be fairly easy to identify what a silver-haired elf is lacking (no eumelanin (brown) or pheomelanin (red)), but harder to identify the inheritance pattern based on the family trees - I am willing to treat it as more-or-less codominant with the blond allele in an effort to explain Galadriel's hair, but mostly it seems fairly recessive. But other arguments could be made.
Maedhros' nickname Russandol means 'copper top', so I would want him to have coppery red hair. One of the twins is meant to have slightly darker red hair than the other. Maglor, Curufin and Caranthir have their father's dark hair. That leaves Celegorm, and we don't really know what color hair he is 'supposed' to have, so....we have some options. We could give him: silver, blond or light brown hair without anyone being able to make too strong an argument against it. Darker is an option (as 'the fair' could refer to his good looks rather than his locks), but...let's not go that way.
Nerdanel is said to have reddish-brown hair, which is why I used 'brown hair with red highlights' as the description in the casting. Certainly, we could also make her straight-up red headed, if we wanted to. We know nothing of Nerdanel's mother, but sure, we can assume she's brown-haired if we need to.
Finwë is dark haired, as is Fëanor. Míriel, however, is silver-haired. Silver seems to be similar to blond as far as inheritance patterns go, but there are some assumptions on my part there. So, if it's recessive, then yes, Fëanor *does* have a recessive allele, which he passes on to about half his kids (the other half have his dark hair). Because Nerdanel has the red trait, it shows up as red, not silver, in their kids. (Finwë being a carrier of the recessive red-hair trait that is masked by his dark hair is not really that much of a stretch.)
[The way red hair works is that you must have the recessive blond trait (not-black), and then there is a separate gene for the red color - blond is dominant, red recessive.]
Silver hair is just 'even less pigment than blond' the way grey eyes are 'even less pigment than blue'. So, it would be fairly easy to identify what a silver-haired elf is lacking (no eumelanin (brown) or pheomelanin (red)), but harder to identify the inheritance pattern based on the family trees - I am willing to treat it as more-or-less codominant with the blond allele in an effort to explain Galadriel's hair, but mostly it seems fairly recessive. But other arguments could be made.
Maedhros' nickname Russandol means 'copper top', so I would want him to have coppery red hair. One of the twins is meant to have slightly darker red hair than the other. Maglor, Curufin and Caranthir have their father's dark hair. That leaves Celegorm, and we don't really know what color hair he is 'supposed' to have, so....we have some options. We could give him: silver, blond or light brown hair without anyone being able to make too strong an argument against it. Darker is an option (as 'the fair' could refer to his good looks rather than his locks), but...let's not go that way.
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Jack Lowden and Ben Rosenfield as the twins?
Lowden:
Rosenfield:
Could be a waste if the roles are super small.
Lowden:
Rosenfield:
Could be a waste if the roles are super small.
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Haerangil
Well-Known Member
thinking about it most of feanors sons are either dark or red haired... so i guess if celegorm has fair hair i think it should either be a light reddish brown or just a light brown tone.i think he should definitely not have golden or blonde hair to avoid any confusion with the descendants of finarfin and elenwe.
there are quite a lot of characters about whose hair color we do not know for sure... orodreth and gil-galad MIGHT. be gold/blonde and celebrian MIGHT be silverhaired... we don't know about anaire, turgon, eol, argon, earendil, eldalote, or celebrimbor... of course we can decide to make them generic black/brown haired noldor..and the teleri royal house generic silver/white
there are quite a lot of characters about whose hair color we do not know for sure... orodreth and gil-galad MIGHT. be gold/blonde and celebrian MIGHT be silverhaired... we don't know about anaire, turgon, eol, argon, earendil, eldalote, or celebrimbor... of course we can decide to make them generic black/brown haired noldor..and the teleri royal house generic silver/white
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Haerangil
Well-Known Member
depends on our version.if hes orodreths son, angrods grandson and finarfins great grandson hes likely to have golden hair.his sister finduilas has golden hair too..
funny enough.in my own inner canon i imagined almost all noldor dark haired, which means also orodreth and gil- galad.
we also dont know about dior,elured,elurin,galathil,galadhon,elmo and earendil either... though much speaks for silver/white with elmos descendants. earendil is tricky... both his parents blonde,his wife possibly silverhaired... his sons bothdark haired
funny enough.in my own inner canon i imagined almost all noldor dark haired, which means also orodreth and gil- galad.
we also dont know about dior,elured,elurin,galathil,galadhon,elmo and earendil either... though much speaks for silver/white with elmos descendants. earendil is tricky... both his parents blonde,his wife possibly silverhaired... his sons bothdark haired
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Haerangil
Well-Known Member
I#ve found this fun APP:
https://dna.frieger.com/calc-quick.php
Genetic Heredity Calculator
also works for other traits... it's quite interesting to play through some combinations, Silver/white Hair should work as very light blond
don't know how reliable it is though.
following the APP Feanors and Nerdanels Kids would most likely have brown hair, Fingolfins Brown Hair and Earendil would most likely be blond while Elwing should bebrown/dark haired.Celebrian should be Blond, Dior would also have brown Hair, Elured and Elurin could be brown or blond. Also interesting: Nerdanels Mother should be red or blond too...
all of this considering white/silver a variation of Blond.
https://dna.frieger.com/calc-quick.php
Genetic Heredity Calculator
also works for other traits... it's quite interesting to play through some combinations, Silver/white Hair should work as very light blond
don't know how reliable it is though.
following the APP Feanors and Nerdanels Kids would most likely have brown hair, Fingolfins Brown Hair and Earendil would most likely be blond while Elwing should bebrown/dark haired.Celebrian should be Blond, Dior would also have brown Hair, Elured and Elurin could be brown or blond. Also interesting: Nerdanels Mother should be red or blond too...
all of this considering white/silver a variation of Blond.
I see Celegorm and Caranthir as both having bad tempers, but Celegorm as clearly the more villainous. Curufin and Caranthir have redeeming moments in text... but not Celegorm.
Yes, Feanor and all his sons started out as decent people, which is why people like Aule and Nerdanel and Orome liked them. But by the time of the Rebellion, I think Curufin and Celegorm were both going downhill fast.
As for wives, Tolkien noted that Maglor and Caranthir also were married. Perhaps their wives stayed behind in Valinor.
Yes, Feanor and all his sons started out as decent people, which is why people like Aule and Nerdanel and Orome liked them. But by the time of the Rebellion, I think Curufin and Celegorm were both going downhill fast.
As for wives, Tolkien noted that Maglor and Caranthir also were married. Perhaps their wives stayed behind in Valinor.
Marielle
Well-Known Member
I mostly agree, but Celegorm has Huan. Why would Huan attach himself to Celegorm? He might end as the most wicked, but he can't begin that way.
No, he didn't begin that way. None of them did.
I think of Celegorm as being dark-haired, personally. If he was a redhead, Tolkien would have mentioned that along with his redhead brothers.
I see Maedhros as a lighter red, and Celegorm as light brown, or just "fair" being either good looks, or left over from when Celegorm and Finrod Felagund the Fair were the same character back in the Lost Tales
I think of Celegorm as being dark-haired, personally. If he was a redhead, Tolkien would have mentioned that along with his redhead brothers.
I see Maedhros as a lighter red, and Celegorm as light brown, or just "fair" being either good looks, or left over from when Celegorm and Finrod Felagund the Fair were the same character back in the Lost Tales
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