Femme fatale et mauvaises femmes

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
The third one is too "cute" and not distorted enough, I don't like it.

The second one isn't bad.

The second one in my post would also be fine with me. I still think it's the creepiest so far, although I could do without the breasts on it.

My first thought about your first is that it's ugly (not cute), but it looks like it'd have trouble biting anyone...

It might be creepier if different bat-messengers have faces distorted in different ways. Some like my second pic, some like your second pic.


"Died during the collapse of Minas Tirith" seems like the most plausible explanation to me, unless Huan can jump really high to catch a flying thing.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I agree the third is too cute... but it#s the only more female-looking one I could find.

A vampire shape with pinions vast
screeching leaped from the ground, and passed,
its dark blood dripping on the trees;
and Huan neath him lifeless sees
a wolvish corpse - for Thu had flown
Though winged creatures to and fro 3780
unnumbered pass here, all I know.
I know not this. Stay, vampire, stay!
I like not thy kin nor thee. Come, say
what sneaking errand thee doth bring,
thou winged vermin, to the king! 3785
Small matter, I doubt not, if thou stay
or enter, or if in my play
I crush thee like a fly on wall,
or bite thy wings and let thee crawl.'
The vampire dark
she flung aside, and like a lark
cleaving through night to dawn she sprang,
while sheer, heart-piercing silver, rang 3815
her voice, as those long trumpets keen
thrilling, unbearable, unseen
in the cold aisles of morn. Her cloak
by white hands woven, like a smoke,
like all-bewildering, all-enthralling, 3820
all-enfolding evening, falling
from lifted arms, as forth she stepped,
across those awful eyes she swept,
a shadow and a mist of dreams
wherein entangled starlight gleams.
any thoughts on these?
the last quote sounds abbit to me as if Thuringwetgil abandoned her form when she was caught to escape... possible interpretation?
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member



I also am in favour of a more distorted look. These Vampires are demons after all... this doesn#t mean i want them to have horns or anything, but it should be clear these are old spirits, consumed by hate and evil.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
That first picture isn't terrible, but not as creepy as the earlier pictures. The other two I don't like at all.

As to the quotes,

A vampire shape with pinions vast
screeching leaped from the ground, and passed,
its dark blood dripping on the trees;
and Huan neath him lifeless sees
a wolvish corpse - for Thu had flown
This is actually Sauron, abandoning his gaur-wolf body/fana and fleeing from Huan as a flying thing, apparently like a bat vampire. I don't like this part especially -- this part was written 1929-1930 and I don't think, in the post-LotR conception of the Maiar, that just any Maia can sprout wings and fly. My impression is that only the Maiar of Manwe and Varda can actually have flying shapes. Sauron was a Maia of Aule, so I think he should flee unclad, that is, with no body at all. Especially since it should have taken some time to create a new body after losing his previous one.

Though winged creatures to and fro 3780
unnumbered pass here, all I know.
I know not this. Stay, vampire, stay!
I like not thy kin nor thee. Come, say
what sneaking errand thee doth bring,
thou winged vermin, to the king! 3785
Small matter, I doubt not, if thou stay
or enter, or if in my play
I crush thee like a fly on wall,
or bite thy wings and let thee crawl.'
This is Carcharoth speaking to Luthien-disguised-as-a-bat-thing.

The vampire dark
she flung aside, and like a lark
cleaving through night to dawn she sprang,
while sheer, heart-piercing silver, rang 3815
her voice, as those long trumpets keen
thrilling, unbearable, unseen
in the cold aisles of morn. Her cloak
by white hands woven, like a smoke,
like all-bewildering, all-enthralling, 3820
all-enfolding evening, falling
from lifted arms, as forth she stepped,
across those awful eyes she swept,
a shadow and a mist of dreams
wherein entangled starlight gleams.
This is Luthien casting aside the bat-skin and putting Carcharoth to sleep with her own hair-shadow-cloak.


Here's the description of the bat-skin (maybe you already posted this, don't have time to look):
the other was a batike garb
with mighty fingered wings, a barb
like iron nail at each joint's end --
such wings as their dark cloud extend
against the moon, when in the sky
from Deadly Nightshade screeching fly
Thu's messengers.
and when Luthien wears it flying over Anfauglith:
and o'er it batlike in wide rings
a reeling shadow slowly wings.
Such shapes there oft were seen to roam,
this land their native haunt and home;
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
She will have a humanoid form sometimes, I believe, like when she’s talking to Mairon, but change to a bat most of the time.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Is she just an Umaia, or an Umaia imprisoned in a real physical body, like the Dragons and Gaurwaith/werewolves?

What I mean is, does she change shape like regular Maiar do, or because she has a body which is itself able to change shape?
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
It seems that she can only change between humanoid form and bat form, so she’s not free to change any way she likes. Alternatively, she could change to other forms as well but has a manic fixation on the bat form.
Well she could be using a shapeshifter item, perhaps created by Mairon?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I think that as generations go on, the Maiar bloodline will diminish, so that by the time we reach the third age, we just have big bats.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Right, just like with Gaurwaith diminishing into Wargs, or fire-breathing Dragons diminishing into less-fiery Dragons and even Cold-drakes.

What season did Thuringwethil first appear? I think it's plausible for her to have started out as an Umaia who used both humanoid and bat-like shapes, and then get imprisoned in an actual bat-monster-body at some point. My understanding was that Morgoth doesn't really start imprisoning Umaiar into separately-bred physical bodies, until the Noldor prove that Orcs alone aren't good enough. So Thuringwethil, Glaurung, Draugluin, et al start as minor spirits and are later "upgraded" with bodies that add some power, at the expense of shapeshifting flexibility and probably some kind of tortuous necromantic process.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Right, just like with Gaurwaith diminishing into Wargs, or fire-breathing Dragons diminishing into less-fiery Dragons and even Cold-drakes.

What season did Thuringwethil first appear? I think it's plausible for her to have started out as an Umaia who used both humanoid and bat-like shapes, and then get imprisoned in an actual bat-monster-body at some point. My understanding was that Morgoth doesn't really start imprisoning Umaiar into separately-bred physical bodies, until the Noldor prove that Orcs alone aren't good enough. So Thuringwethil, Glaurung, Draugluin, et al start as minor spirits and are later "upgraded" with bodies that add some power, at the expense of shapeshifting flexibility and probably some kind of tortuous necromantic process.

She first appears in Season 1, but she has no real role there. She figures much more prominently in Season 2.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I think it's plausible for her to have started out as an Umaia who used both humanoid and bat-like shapes, and then get imprisoned in an actual bat-monster-body at some point.
Yes I like this. Does she get stuck in bat form because that is what happens after a while, or because Morgoth punishes her and traps her in bat form?

I still have a problem with the skinning bit but maybe that could be solved somehow.

Anyway... It's something like this, right? This is the change?
upload_2018-1-16_8-16-17.jpegupload_2018-1-16_8-17-42.jpeg
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
The first two quotes are descriptive. The third isn't an indication that Thuringwethil herself was a shapeshifter using a physical skin.

Yes I like this. Does she get stuck in bat form because that is what happens after a while, or because Morgoth punishes her and traps her in bat form?

I still have a problem with the skinning bit but maybe that could be solved somehow.

Anyway... It's something like this, right? This is the change?
I like that second pic.

She could get stuck in her bat form and lose her ability to shapeshift, the way Morgoth and later Sauron get stuck in their Dark Lord shapes. Or she could be imprisoned. The latter would seem like the best explanation for her skin being available... except that when the Gaurhoth attack the Fellowship, they presumably (like other Gaurhoth) are demons imprisoned in physical bodies, and their corpses evaporate. But Glaurung is imprisoned in a body and his doesn't evaporate when he's killed. So were those Gaurhoth in the LotR just demon spirits in fanar/bodies they'd made themselves, not real physical bodies? If that's the difference, then I think Thuringwethil must be imprisoned at some point.

You could say Thuringwethil used a separate skin to shapeshift, and it was readily available when she dropped it... but that doesn't help explain Draugluin's flayed skin. Who flayed him? Surely not Huan? It may have to be rewritten so that Huan and Luthien plan the disguise together, and she skins the bodies.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I like that second pic.
Well the first pic is the actress playing Thuringwethil.

Yes someone has to flay Draugluin. It seems that it has to be Lúthien. Perhaps she skins Thuringwethil as well.
Pointing this out really does something to the story, doesn’t it? But maybe it’s just me who have ignored it and softened the whole thing.
 

Marielle

Well-Known Member
Yes I like this. Does she get stuck in bat form because that is what happens after a while, or because Morgoth punishes her and traps her in bat form?
I don't dislike the idea of her becoming trapped in bat form as the series progresses, but I'd rather it be the result of her own actions, rather than external "trapping" by Morgoth. We've already established that Morgoth is stuck in a not-pretty form, and I think Ungoliant is, too? And Sauron will be after Numinor.

Really, we don't have to make it explicit, though. Thuringwethil might, as she and the rest of Mairon's posse continue down their dark paths, just come to prefer the vampire form, or at least remain in it all/most of the time. I don't think she'd mind much not being pretty, if the bat-form was more useful for her getting knowledge (especially secrets) -- as a flying form would likely be.
 

Marielle

Well-Known Member
Yes someone has to flay Draugluin. It seems that it has to be Lúthien. Perhaps she skins Thuringwethil as well.
Pointing this out really does something to the story, doesn’t it? But maybe it’s just me who have ignored it and softened the whole thing.
Couldn't we skirt this with her cloak? As a manifestation of her power, her cloak could be what she uses to shapeshift or fly -- Haakon suggested a talisman earlier, I'd rather the cloak -- and Luthien could take that.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Yes, well, as I said earlier, in Nordic myths it’s common to have shapeshifters use cloaks or fleeces. I think we could use that for Thuringwethil.
 

Marielle

Well-Known Member
I think I'd rather that. Maybe because I've been assuming we'll have at least sometimes seen Thuringwethil in humanoid form, while Draughlin has been a wolf the whole time, the image of Luthien skinning her is... unpleasant.
 
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