Field Trips: Arnorian Ruins

Lalaith

Member
I've been so enjoying class recently, there have been many great topics, like female characters, how the ring tempts Frodo, and the lack of egalitarianism. But as always, I have also been enjoying the field trips.

I was catching up on last class, and I noticed that the observation was made that perhaps the Arnorian ruin on the East Bank of the River Lune was Cardolanian, on the basis of the Upward pointing star. But I'm not sure this is the case.

I recently posted on this topic in the other ELOTR Forum, because it was long after we finished visiting the Lone Lands and I figured it shouldn't clutter up "Questions for Narnion". Since we have now come back to examining the ruins of Arnor, I thought I might provide those discoveries, at this link:
"In-Game Archaeological Examination of the Lone Lands"

In essence, the main curiosity is that the Upward pointing star does not seem to be a solely Cardolanian symbol.
 
Actually a cardolanian ruin anywhere near the Lune is absolutely impossible and would not make ANY sense at all by what we know about the borders of the three kingdoms. Coreys exploits in archaeo-gaming are mostly his personal fanfic... funny and entertaining, but mostly badly founded on the few facts we have.And i actually have studied archeology , arts-history and prehistory...
 
I agree with you on the near impossibility of the Cardolanian Ruin on the Lune, and given the evidence(per my other post linked above) I would say it is instead Arthedainian. But since during the Lone Lands field trips no one ever observed the Upward Star on all the other ruins it is found in, besides Ost Haer(again, per my previous post), I can totally understand why the professor made the conclusion he did with the information he had.

That being said, it is almost a certainty that the game developers didn't expect us to look at LOTRO in this much detail, but it's fun to do anyway.
 
Sure it is fun! Yet... for example... i say you find a symbol you can't even really identify somewhere where ... well let's say the saxons ruled... and it is pretty typical in that area... then at first you might suspect that it is a saxon symbol.

But then you find the same symbol where the lombards lived ... well in that case you don't go ahead and say "ooooh, wow! This once too was part of old saxony!"

instead you go back and maybe reconsider your interpretation of that symbol!

To be fair the star is a pretty generic symbol, and a pretty generic dunadan symbol too...

And to be honest, even right frommthe start it wasn't even too sure that ost haer was part of old Cardolan ... the weathertop,and the great road were the border we are told... yet border regions are typically contested and often a faction will build beyond the original border marks if they have won territory to secure their new appropiation of land.I on and off enjoy coreys field trips, but his entire view on how archeology works is just plainly wrong
 
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Ah, I see what you are saying with the example of the saxons. That makes sense! But with the evidence he had on hand, I think the spur-of-the-moment conclusion that the professor drew(that the ruin on the Lune was an estate of the bloodline that would eventually become Cardolan), while unlikely when given further evidence, was not fully preposterous.(He's never claimed to be a professional archaeologist, and neither am I.)
And as you say, sometimes a faction will build beyond their borders. I totally agree. Stori3D Past, Halstein, and I have been discussing that civil war and it's nature a little bit in previous posts. Those forts in the Lone Lands were probably occupied by many factions at different times. I would appreciate your input on those posts. There is so much we know about the kingdom(s) of Arnor, and yet, so little. It's a fun realm of Middle Earth to speculate about!
 
Thing is... Arnor just had ONE dynasty... Earnurs descendants... seated at Annuminas...
So let's say Amlaith becomes king of Arthedain, he stays at Annuminas.His brother Thorondur becomes King of Cardolan.. he moves to some place in Cardolan, maybe Tharbad or Lond Daer or somewhere near those places.Brother no3 lets call him Aldarion, becomes King of Rhudaur... he moves to rhudaur, probably somewhere in the Trollshaws or maybe near rivendell...

so however you turn it, the conclusion just does not make ANY sense ☺

But yes... these sort of discussions ARE fun!
 
I'm not sure I agree. While the Royal dynasty in Arnor was singular, the population of Arnor were not all direct descendants of that dynasty.

If the estate belonged to the bloodline of a cousin of Elendil that was also a member of the Faithful then the conclusion could make perfect sense.
Tolkien wrote three versions of the story with a brother for Amandil. He was only removed because he no longer served a purpose for the story. What is to suggest that Elendil had no cousins?
 
Not sure how then that would link that symbol with cardolan in the closer sense... yes it could simply be the symbol of a noble family which had once lived near Ost haer and and at one point lived near Luneland, but then all direct connection to Cardolan would still be very sketchy and relative.

Noble families affiliations to rulers can change, also the fiefs they have been given by the crown...

I am still not sure which ruins would be older, the lunelandish ones or the Lonelandish ones.
 
Not sure how then that would link that symbol with cardolan in the closer sense... yes it could simply be the symbol of a noble family which had once lived near Ost haer and and at one point lived near Luneland, but then all direct connection to Cardolan would still be very sketchy and relative.

Noble families affiliations to rulers can change, also the fiefs they have been given by the crown...

I am still not sure which ruins would be older, the lunelandish ones or the Lonelandish ones.
I don't pretend to have THE answer, I'm just proposing conditions in which there are answers than CAN make sense.

If the family using that symbol lived in the surrounds of the River Lhun but were politically aligned with the son that came to rule Cardolan, they may have then relocated en masse when they found themselves in territory controlled by adversaries.

In that scenario, the 'lunelandish' ruins would be older.
 
Or one could make up a scenario in which a cardolanian family had to flee and found refuge in Arthedain and was settled along the Lune...

Anyway i like the idea that the symbol belonged to a local clan or house better than the interpretation as a Cardolanian royal or political symbol.. or territorial symbol -by far the most unlikely choice!


Thinking of what the symbol and places have in common, they all appear along the great east-road, so maybe they were symbols of a group connected to trade?
 
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All good productive thoughts! We are nailing this down...

I like the idea of a Cardolan family or clan possessing this symbol, if we are looking at it from the perspective the professor and the group had and the evidence they possessed as of class on the 30th of July. Because of the likelihood of this theory, I think it is fair to cut some slack, since the broad use of this upward-pointed star had not been noticed or pointed out before.

From the broader perspective: If we look at all the evidence we have brought forth put together, this symbol is found on most ruins throughout Bree-land and the Shire too, and even in Fornost and the North Downs. But rarely, if ever, on any ruin associated with Rhudaur. For this reason, I still think it is a very common symbol in both Arthedain and Cardolan, but for what particular reason(other than Numenorean roots), I know not. It definitely is a sign of the rebellious nature and culture of the Rhudaurans.
Haerangil, I think what you mentioned about a connection through trade or politics is leading us on the right track in that matter, and I agree that a territorial nature seems unlikely, given it's popularity.
 
Hm... what youre saying... we've not really seen much of cardolan as far as i know... buckland, old forest, barrow downs, maybe parts of the southern lonelands.Consideri g this i am tending more towards an Arthadan symbol by now... with the ruins found south of the great east road being exceptions.
 
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