Finduilas and Fate in Túrin's Story

[Odola]

Question about Finduilas: how soon should we introduce her? Surely there's a reason why Gwindor says that only her survival can save Túrin from his fate.

Maybe because the "bigger special fate" of the Halfelven would have overridden even Morgoth's curse? [Halfeleven seem to be in the "gray area" of the elvish and human fates interlapping and this seems to lend them a little more flexibility and leeway to manouver over some complex issues than any of the races has on its own each. A certain kind of synergy seems to occur in such unions - see their offsping e.g. Earendil and Elwing making it to Valinor while both Mortals and Eldar were banned to do so (after the revolt of the Noldor)]. So combined they seem to be able to "overcome" the might of the Valar to a certain extend and within certrain limits. This might have been leeway enough for Túrin, who as a human has a certain innate ability to "play with fate" anyway, to be able to "cheet" even the might of Morgoth to the extent to be able to get away at least from the utmost destruction.

Gwindor is also still in love with Finduilas so it is normal for him to overestimate her and her powers.
But actually she is in a compromised position. She has stopped loving Gwindor when he returns altered and aged after his captivity for the young dashing misterious guy. But Túrin is aware that in about 30-40 years he himself will look much worse than Gwindor does now due to normal human aging as such he does not trust her feelings to survive this if they did not survive Gwindor's diminished appearance. And Gwindor is his friend whom Túrin loves as such he is offended on his friend's behalf for her having stopped to love him. It makes all the sense in the world for Túrin to think little of Finduilas - from a mortal point of view. For Gwindor her - for an elf untypical - change of heart is a mark of a bigger fate overriding the "normal way of things" but for Turin is it just a proof of Finduilas' assumed weakness of character and lack of consistency - as it would have been in a human.

I think a cast Finduilas should be young but able to perform a inwardly"conflicted" 😉 character gracefully.

 

[MithLuin]

I think Gwindor's words can be chalked up to the foresight of a dying elf. If Túrin rescues Finduilas and stays with her, he will not accidentally marry his own sister. Túrin's decision to go to Dor-lómin has everything to do with the dragon's words, so Gwindor is giving him an alternative path to walk. Túrin, of course, does not choose the way Gwindor might hope. But maybe there never was an alternative path anyway. Fate and free will are very intertwined in Túrin's story.

 

[Odola]

I think Gwindor's words can be chalked up to the foresight of a dying elf. If Túrin rescues Finduilas and stays with her, he will not accidentally marry his own sister. Túrin's decision to go to Dor-lómin has everything to do with the dragon's words, so Gwindor is giving him an alternative path to walk. Túrin, of course, does not choose the way Gwindor might hope. But maybe there never was an alternative path anyway. Fate and free will are very intertwined in Túrin's story.

But Gwindor's was resigned to Finduilas' "change of heart" even long before. Having been in Morgoth's dungeons he seems to have learned and understood something of evil's ways and what's threatening to them. Gwindor he knew the rumours of Luthien's and Berens' feat and had time enough to ponder why a mixed couple suceeded where neither elves or men could prevail before. So his perspective about such matters is much broader than a random's elf's would be. And marrying one's sister was not so much a problem in ancient times among humans, ancient royal houses did it intentionally all the time - marrying one's mother like Oedipus was much more a problem (but not in all societies, there were even some - if few - cultures where "self-marriage" (marriage of close kin) was desirable and the general ideal), sister was usually not preferable but overlookable in certain circumstances. Killing one's friend without a valid reason was generally much more a dishonourable an act than unwittingly marrying one's sister.

 

[MithLuin]

The tale of Kullervo, which is the basis for the Children of Húrin, features a warrior returning home after a long time away. He sees a pretty girl and throws her on his sled. At first, she protests, but eventually they do spend the night together. In the morning, they exchange names, and are horrified to discover they have the same parents. She throws herself into the river and drowns, while he falls on his sword.

So, yes, it's fundamental to the story that the horror of discovering one has committed accidental incest with a sibling leads directly to suicide. The fate Gwindor thinks Túrin can avoid by rescuing Finduilas is marrying Nienor.

 

[Odola]

The tale of Kullervo, which is the basis for the Children of Húrin, features a warrior returning home after a long time away. He sees a pretty girl and throws her on his sled. At first, she protests, but eventually they do spend the night together. In the morning, they exchange names, and are horrified to discover they have the same parents. She throws herself into the river and drowns, while he falls on his sword.

As far I remember Kullervo goes on to have some more adventures after that and in the end he thows himself at his sword but after a life of many misfortunes - mostly brought apon by his violent temper and lack of thought? It was some decades ago since I have read the Kalevala.

And it was not the incest itself that was that the main problem for the sister in said story.
It was that she lost her maidenhood to somebody who could not restore her public honour by marrying her as he was discovered prior to such an attempt to be someone unmarriable for her - so that there was no way for her to recover her honour in this situation.

But Turin and Nienor were married, so there was nothing realy dishounourable. Such things do happened in war-torn societies context where children were oprhaned and raised apart a lot in history.
This is why the institution of the "banns of marriage" was introduced in the first place.

And even in the Catholic Church in such a case when a couple that is suddenly discovered to be too close related for a marriage to have been assumed possible to have taken place such an assumed marriage is simply declared null and void by the ecclesiastical court but nobody is considered blamesworthy. Also the children of such an union are considered legit because they were conceived while the marriage of their parents was assumed valid. No party is considered to be blamed and nobody makes a fuss. The couple is obliged to live apart the very moment that they have learned of their close connection to each other but nobody blames them for anything that they have have done while they assumed themselves to have been married to each other.

So, yes, it's fundamental to the story that the horror of discovering one has committed accidental incest with a sibling leads directly to suicide. The fate Gwindor thinks Túrin can avoid by rescuing Finduilas is marrying Nienor.

What horror? Incest is horrible when it is the misuse of power inside of a familly unit where a dependant person is being misused.
But when people not knowing that they are related enter an assumedly valid relationship then this is misfortunate but far from a horror.

 

[MithLuin]

In that case, what reason do you think leads to the deaths of Nienor and Túrin after they learn that Niniel was Nienor all along?

 

[Odola]

In that case, what reason do you think leads to the deaths of Nienor and Túrin after they learn that Niniel was Nienor all along?

Nienior was already mentaly very fragile, overstrained and pregnant - as such very vulnerable to fall into despair and she felt guilty about causing his brother trouble -s he felt as his weak spot and wanted to remove that weakness from him. And she has had enough - feeling helpless and vulnerable.
He because he failed to protect her both as her husband and her brother and seemigly unable to get anything right.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

What horror? Incest is horrible when it is the misuse of power inside of a familly unit where a dependant person is being misused.
But when people not knowing that they are related enter an assumedly valid relationship then this is misfortunate but far from a horror.

So by that definition Cersei and Jaime isn't horrible incest?

 

[MithLuin]

Without saying too much, I know someone who has experienced sibling incest. It was not a positive aspect of this person's life story, and certainly left trauma to be dealt with in future relationships.

It will be quite some time before we get to the Túrin season, but I seriously doubt we have any intention of presenting the incest as a positive or normal occurrence in the story.

 

[Odola]

So by that definition Cersei and Jaime isn't horrible incest?

They know that they are related. They live in a well defined family unit. They knowingly overstep boundaries that are known to them.
But actually from Catholic standpoint it is more reprehensible to be sexually active with one's adoptive sibling than a stanger biological one as long as you did not known about the blood kinship. But in Catholic thinking any sexual activity outside of marriage is wrong as such such details have little weight in the end. Still molesting a dependant inside a family unit when a part is bound to protect the other is considered especially grave.

As far I know marrying close relatives was not necesary frowned upon in pagan times, also in Europe, for the elites. Ruling men usually had several wives and marrying one's father's widow(s) did happen. Halfsisters seemed to have been mostly fine for marriage - full sisters - grey area.

The Romans had a marriage prohibition for close kin up to 5 degress of kinship which the Church later adopted and modified.

But nobody would consider people getting married when they did not know they were sibling as dishonourable, just extremely unfortunate.
Murdering someone = bad; unknowingly marrying one's sibling = very bad luck.

 

[Rob Harding]

Yeah, just to say, let’s for a minute pretend once more we are actually trying to adapt the show for TV. Like, for an audience. That might want to watch these stories. Probably let’s not celebrate incest, yeah? Cool.

 

[Odola]

Yeah, just to say, let’s for a minute pretend once more we are actually trying to adapt the show for TV. Like, for an audience. That might want to watch these stories. Probably let’s not celebrate incest, yeah? Cool.

Let's not celebrate suicide either. The problem did not warrant killing herself and her unborn child. Escaping Morgoth's curse actually far more.

 

[Rob Harding]

Also agree with this. However, if we do want to tastefully broach the tragedy of that subject that’s a conversation to have. It’s pretty hard to tastefully tell an incest story.

 

[Odola]

Also agree with this. However, if we do want to tastefully broach the tragedy of that subject that’s a conversation to have. It’s pretty hard to tastefully tell an incest story.

Like in the original Kullervo story it is one about the dangers of acting before thinking, Turin should have taken care to find out the found girl's indentity first before marrying her. Which could have been done relatively easily - any elf from Doriath would have been able to identify her. If Turin was afraid to meet any himself he could have send one of his men in disguise to check if they happen to know about a missing girl running wild in the woods. And elves generally do know stuff.

This actually one of the reasons while such a fuss is made about offical marriage in the Church - to prevent incest (as far it is possible - the older generations have their secrets and the recorded parentage is not always the factual one - but still it will be more often correct than not) which is due to occur if people do not check their identities at all before they come together.

[https://www.intelligentliving.co/genetic-data-thousands-uk-born-extreme-inbreeding/ this is about people born between 1938 and 1967 - now that many do not bother to get married at all - and as such do not bother to have their relation to each other checked not recorded before they come together - the amount will rise.]

 

[Rob Harding]

Like in the original Kullervo story it is one about the dangers of acting before thinking, Turin should have taken care to find out the found girl's indentity first before marrying her. Which could have been done relatively easily - any elf from Doriath woul have been able to identify her. If Turin was aftraid to meet any himself he could have send one of his men in disguise to check if they happen to know about a missing girl running wild in the woods. And elves generally do know stuff.

This actually one of the reasons while such a fuss is made about offical marriage in the Church - to prevent incest (as far it is possible - the older generations have their secrets and the recorded parentage is not always the factual one - but still it will be more often correct than not) which is due to occur if people do not check their identities at all before they come together.

[https://www.intelligentliving.co/genetic-data-thousands-uk-born-extreme-inbreeding/ this is about people born between 1938 and 1967 - now that many do not bother to get married at all - and as such do not bother to have their relation to each other checked before they come together - the amount will rise.]

I think the last comment largely ignores the ever so slight increase in connectivity that has occurred in the last several decades.

 

[Odola]

I think the last comment largely ignores the ever so slight increase in connectivity that has occurred in the last several decades.

? If there are more children with unrecorded or not factual paternity and more serial unrecorded relationships in one's lifetime then the chances of running into one's unknown half-sibling rise quite dramatically for the future generations. As such the warning in the Turin story is not really less topical then it was in the original Kullervo story.

 

[Rob Harding]

Disagree but regardless, this tangent feels like it’s getting a little sideways and off-topic

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Well this thread took a turn from being about who to cast...

 

[MithLuin]

This conversation has been moved to a new thread in a new forum, with a title that might help people to figure out what the topic of the thread is. Hopefully, that will be helpful if anyone wishes to come back to this conversation at a later time.

 

[MithLuin]

This comment on Mallory's King Arthur story seems relevant to this discussion of Túrin and Nienor:

Re-listening to Malory, a couple thoughts impinged:

Re: Arthur's sleeping with his sister and making God angry. Malory is very careful when describing Morgause's visit to include the fact she brought her FOUR sons. I was thinking that may be a comment on her freedom to explore some hanky-panky at court -- she's done her duty to her Lord (heir and a spare) plus two. Also, regarding the bastard begot on the unmarrried lady - part of his realm included Wales where bastardy is not recognized. A son is a son. Everyone knows kings only marry for political gain, but a son can still be an asset (look at King Henry I and John). So my conclusion is that God's anger HAS to be based on the incest alone. In which case he should be mad at Morgause - since she knew darned well he was her brother.