Frame Narrative

Certainly, the implication at the end of 'The Rings of Power and the Third Age' (and in the Appendices of LotR) was that Cirdan would wait for the last ship...and that he would await Gandalf. We know which ship Gandalf got onto...the question is if Cirdan joined him. And, also, if there would have been a later ship for Sam if Cirdan was already gone.
 
And let's not forget Legolas and Gimli. I'd like to think that Círdan stays and provides ships for travellers to the West until the last ship to cross over has been built. Perhaps Celeborn joins him on the last ship, to reunite with Galadriel?
 
Legolas built his own ship, and did not depart from the Grey Havens. But yes, there are clearly ships that depart the Grey Havens after the one at the beginning of the 4th Age. Celeborn does not stay in Rivendell indefinitely.
 
As a Clueless Noob, I'm just not understanding the Arwen Frame. I don't understand why the frame has to be "exciting". I don't understand why the frame has to invent new material to explain itself. I got here a week ago and haven't had time to listen back through all the podcasts so maybe I'll eventually find answers, but in the meantime...

Why can't you just use the frame that Tolkien left waiting and available at the end of Return of the King?
"Soon Celeborn and Galadriel and their folk would turn eastward, and so pass by the Redhorn Gate and down the Dimrill Stair to the Silverlode and to their own country. They had journeyed thus far by the west-ways, for they had much to speak of with Elrond and with Gandalf, and here they lingered still in converse with their friends. Often long after the hobbits were wrapped in sleep they would sit together under the stars, recalling the ages that were gone and all their joys and labours in the world, or holding council, concerning the days to come."

And I'm just going to throw out there the "telling a story about telling a story" concept used in Princess Bride. I mean, how "exciting" is Peter Falk reading a book to Fred Savage? This would allow Celeborn, Galadiriel, Elrond, and Gandalf to just be sitting around a campfire telling each other stories, and interrupting as necessary to ask questions or fill in blanks. It also includes Gandalf who can provide the narrative from the Valinorean side of the Pond.

Celeborn is telling the story about the awakening at Cuiveinen and that's the scene we're seeing. Then Gandalf interrupts to tell them how Orome's horse was actually the one who first spotted the elves, and the scene instantly shifts back to the bedroom - I mean the campfire. Celeborn says, "I remember hearing about that. Anyway, ..." and a ripple-dissolve back to Cuivienen. I have no idea how to make this work on screen, but as a shout-out to the die-hard fans have voiced communication be around the campfire and the "on the scene" scenes be Osanwe. That's how Tolkien wrote it, after all. "For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro."

Wow! That got long and rambly. I'll shut up now and go back to listening to the backlog of podcasts, and let those of you who know way more than I do get back to your discussions.
 
Welcome to the forum, Clueless Noob! Wonderful to see a long and rambly post!
Clueless Noob said:
Why can't you just use the frame that Tolkien left waiting and available at the end of Return of the King?
"Soon Celeborn and Galadriel and their folk would turn eastward, and so pass by the Redhorn Gate and down the Dimrill Stair to the Silverlode and to their own country. They had journeyed thus far by the west-ways, for they had much to speak of with Elrond and with Gandalf, and here they lingered still in converse with their friends. Often long after the hobbits were wrapped in sleep they would sit together under the stars, recalling the ages that were gone and all their joys and labours in the world, or holding council, concerning the days to come."
Click to expand...

A fair question. The short answer is, we have decided to use a frame that changes narrators every season (the first season, we had Elrond telling stories and educating young Estel. Next season, the frame will - if I remember correctly - follow young Bilbo after the events of 'The Hobbit', as he travels and bit by bit discovers the history of the elves; later, in season five, when we are going to deal with the story of Beren and Luthien, we will show how Arwen and Aragorn meet), and each season's frame follows the one before chronologically. We won't jump backwards and forwards. So, even if your idea is a god one, we can't do it that way.

Hope you will have fun catching up on the podcasts, see you again on the forum!
 
Welcome to the forums, and I have to admit I smiled to see your screen name - well met indeed!

There's no reason we can't use that idea for the Frame....eventually. I think that would be an interesting idea for the Frame of one of the seasons near the end of the Lord of the Rings material - perhaps for the penultimate season? Or, if we are using all post-LotR frames to tell the story of LotR then maybe this could be the Frame for the Hobbit material, setting that in motion, and showing a transition to a post-LotR frame for the final however-many-seasons.

Keep in mind that as we have many, many seasons of TV to show here (maybe 15?), a repetitive static frame will eventually bore our viewers. As for 'how interesting?' are Peter Falk and Fred Savage - interesting enough to have a story arc and some funny lines. We see that the grandfather is trying to carry on a family tradition, and the grandson is not terribly interested in being part of this experience. 'I'll try to stay awake.' 'Your vote of confidence is overwhelming' establishes the personalities and desires of both. And then as time goes on, we see the kid become more invested in the story. While the first kissing scene is vetoed, at the end, he 'doesn't mind so much.' And the interruption to inform him that 'she does not get eaten by the eels at this time' is meant to draw our attention to the fact that he is getting caught up in the story (despite his protests), and is maybe a little more 'concerned' about the characters than he was before, [as well as cut into the story at a dramatic time to keep the viewer in suspense]. And the boy's protests when Westly dies are meant to voice the concerns of the audience at this point in the story: "What did Fezzik mean, 'dead'? Westly's only faking, right?...Who kills Humperdink? In the end? Somebody has to - is it Inigo? Who?...You mean he wins?! Jesus, Grandpa, what did you read me this story for?!"

Our frame should have at least that much going on - characterizations and tensions independent of the 'main' story, which the viewer will want to see play out over the course of the season [hopefully with some clever lines!] And the characters in the Frame can voice some of the thoughts our audience might have - questions, judgments, clearing up confusion, what have you. This also gives us the opportunity to explore some quiet, off-screen backstory that was not the focus of Tolkien's stories, but merely hinted at. Arwen becomes Queen of Gondor and is the heir of Lúthien, restoring her inheritance in Gondor. Seeing who Arwen is and what would lead her to make the choices she did (fleshing out her character) could be very interesting and could add some real depth to our telling of the story of LotR. The marriage of Arwen and Aragorn will not be a 'surprise' ending in our telling, but the viewers will be much more likely to be happy for the couple *finally* getting together. And since we are planning to use the meeting of Arwen and Aragorn in Rivendell for the Frame in Season 5 (to accompany the Beren and Lúthien story), it will be nice to 'meet' Arwen *before* she becomes a romantic interest - to see who she is.
 
So I have been thinking a lot more about the Arwen/Galadriel/Celeborn frame and trying to work out a coherent arc for those characters throughout Season 2. It will need some work, but I think there are some good things in there. The host are right. We can't just drop the crux of the matter on the viewers in episode 1, so it needs to be a drip feed of relevant information and revelations each episode about the events around Celebrian and how Arwen is thinking as she slowly weighs the issues in her mind. I have drawn on information from Appendix B The Tale of the Years because in a place where nothing happens you sometimes need to rely on outside events to find something that happened. So those events I have grabbed are the entry for 2944 "Gollum leaves the Mountains and begins his search for the 'thief' of the Ring" which happens two years after Bilbo returns to he Shire, and the entry for 2510, the same year that Celebrian departs over the sea, "Eorl the Young wins the victory of the Field of Celebrant". Unfinished tales tells how when they rode down the vale of the Anduin and came close to Dol Guldur, they were assisted by a gleaming mist flowing from LothLorien which drove back the glooms from Dol Guldur a sign that the powers in the forest actively assisted their passage which I think we can make a significant event for Galadriel as she has chosen Middle Earth over the risk of her daughter leaving for Valinor. I also think we can parallel the search for Celebrian by Eladan and Elrohir with the search for Elwe and the fading of Celebrian after her rescue with the fading of Miriel. There are a few places where there are gaps or I have made HUGE leaps that may not work. I think we also have to draw some conclusions from the events in the frame or the main story and get across the message that there are no right or wrong answers, there are only decisions and we have to live with them.
This also assumes that Celebrian went back to Lothlorien after she was rescued.
Let's get some discussion going on this otherwise I fear the frame will just get mishmashed about with no clear direction.

· Ep1 The waking of the elves at Cuivienen, their lives, the threat of the Dark Hunter

· Arwen and Celeborn. Opening of episode the attack on Celebrian/dream by Arwen. Arwen recollects the time of loss. Celeborn recollects that the shadow has always been with us from the first days at Cuivienen.​

· Ep 2 The elvish ambassadors go to Valinor. The Valar debate, the invitation by Orome, the time in Valinor, the centuries pass in Cuivienen.

· Arwen and Galadriel. Galadriel dispels Arwen’s musings on the shadow as she describes the light and hope of life with the Valar and as we make our own future.​

· Ep 3 The great debate among the elder, to go or to stay. Divisions arise among the kindreds. The avari stay. Introduction of individuals among the elder. Stirring words from Finwe.

· Decisions can make your destiny. The fate of the world was decided at this time and it shapes your future, so decide carefully.​

· Ep 4 The journey of the Vanyar and Noldor to Valinor. The Teleri continue their journey slowly as they linger in Middle Earth. The Nandor stay in the Anduin valley and Greenwood the Great. Elwe goes missing at end of episode falling for Melian.

· Celeborn muses over the beauty of Middle Earth and the desire to stay. Home is where your heart is and you can make your home wherever you wish.​

· Ep 5 The Sindar looking for Elwe. Cirdan and Olwe get to the coast. Their friendship with Osse. The choices of Olwe and Cirdan. Elwe is found and the Sindar decide to stay. Elwe has found what he was looking for in Melian.

· Eladan and Elrohir visit and recount their search for Celebrian and their finding of her. Relief of her being reunited with family.​

· Ep 6 The final voyage of the Teleri, the making of the swanships and the establishment of Alqualonde. Vanyar move to Taniquetil. The air of Valinor is too intense so the elves settle close to the coast. In effect the last chance to go to Valinor.

· Eladan and Elrohir inform Arwen that her mentor is leaving for the Blessed realm​

· Ep 7 Noontide of Valinor. Personal stories of Finwe and his two marriages, the fading of Miriel, the birth of Feanor, the second marriage.

· Release from angst as Arwen with Galadriel remember happy days after Celebrian had been rescued, but her happiness is marred as the poison/scars and memories from her time in captivity resurface and she starts to fade just like Miriel.​

· Ep 8 Melkor’s release.

· Rumours of Gollum in the Vale of Anduin, stealing babies etc. Arwen goes to investigate with some of the Galadhrim.​

· Ep 9 The making of the Silmarils, Feanor’s pride, Galadriel’s refusal to give hair to Feanor.

· Arwen and Galadriel. Her vow to never give her hair away to anyone.​

· Ep 10 The kinstrife, Feanor’s quarrel and banishment to Formenos.

· Celeborn and Galadriel quarrel.​

· Ep 11 Rumours in Valinor. The Valar finally track the strife back to Melkor’s lies spread throughout the Noldor. Feanor slams the door in Melkor’s face.

· Celeborn recounts how Celebrian became paranoid in her final days in Lothlorien, believing that family were lying to her and keeping her captive, losing her grip on reality. No healing can be found in Middle Earth.​

· Ep 12 The hunt for Melkor, Melkor flees and ends up in Ungoliant’s lair.

· Galadriel recounts how in the face of her daughter declining she actively aided Eorl the Young and the ancestors of the Rohirrim on their ride to the Field of Celebrant.​

· Ep 13 The darkening of Valinor. The death of the trees through to the death of Finwë, thieves quarrel, Melkor’s rescue by Balrogs.

· Galadriel and Celeborn recount the leaving of Celebrian for the West (Middle Earth became too dark for her), Arwen ponders her fate when her time comes. Will it be the same as her mentor or does she have a different fate?
​
I think rather than coming to a definite conclusion about Arwen's fate we just have to say that she has considered it and thought about the consequences of going as opposed to staying as her final decision is made in the context of Aragorn many years later. In addition I feel that Galariel at this time should cast her lot with Middle Earth and feels that the ban of the Valar still applies to her, one of the last remaining Noldor and has come to terms with the fact that she will be in exile for her entire life.
 
I really do like the idea of plotting out the entire frame for the season like this. To make it interesting, it has to be an unfolding story. Our first season frame could be very anecdotal - dealing with the adventures of a young child can be amusing in its own right, and an overarching developing story wasn't the more important part of that. This time...we need more.

I think trying to tie Gollum's actions into the frame is the weakest part of this. Let's not do that. I don't want to see Arwen riding out to save the day among the Men of the Anduin. How that news would have gotten to isolated Lothlorien is also a bit obscure to me. If you want, we could have Gandalf visit Lothlorien as a follow-up to the whole Erebor thing. We've seen him in Season 1, and I kinda like the idea of him having cameos in all of the frame stories.

But the idea of Celebrían being treated in Lothlorien is a novel one to me, and has some interesting potential. Of course the greatest healer in Middle Earth at this time is Elrond, in Rivendell, her husband - it is to be presumed that the twins took her there. But maybe they were on the other side of the mountains and didn't want to risk the travel with their wounded mother? Maybe Elrond comes to them? We can do something with that, and it's an interesting thought.
 
I am behind in the episodes, I am coming up to the final episode of the plot of season 1. There was a comment about where Elrond learned much of the lore from before he was born. One idea is that he has access to two maiar through the white counsel. Sauruman could pass some of the darker information on to Elrond, thus leading to the distrust that Gandolf and Galadriel show him.
 
The link to Gollum was inspired by LOTRO. They have a story line where you help some people who have heard strange noises outside their baby's window during the night and you chase off Gollum but he escapes and you the character has no idea what the creature is. In the same way Arwen and the Galadhrim would have no knowledge of Gollum, it is only the audience who know and this is a good way to drop that piece of information rather than giving a whole episode years down the track to Gollum emerging to hunt for the ring. It also parallels with the main story of Melkor being released with no recount in the frame this time. We said that in a timeless place we may have to rely on external events to move the story along and also having a change from our three main frame characters sitting around and gas-bagging would be a welcome respite.
 
After listening to session 2.07 I don't quite agree about E3 being the crux of the matter with Arwen. I don't think we can get to the crux of the matter until we have told all of Celebrian's story and we have definitely not done that by E3. An important part of the frame arc is I feel the unfolding of Celebrian's story and if the matter of going to the west is the crux then why would we deal with that before the final episode. We lead up to it, we hint, we reveal choice morsels, but if we deal with it in E3 what is there left to cover for the rest of the season?
 
One thing the frame needs to accomplish in this season is to acquaint the viewers with the nature of elves.

I don't know how this can be done with subtlety, but we need this show to explain elves' long lifespans or the viewers will be perplexed when Celeborn shows up in two places thousands of years apart. The lack of non-elf characters in this frame makes this difficult.

Another issue is what happens to elves when they are slain. Somehow their souls travel to Valinor and stay in the Halls of Mandos. How do they get there? Do the Valar shepherd them over, or is it automatic? If they travel the Halls of Mandos automatically, what causes it? Does Mandos do this by himself because the nature of elves' souls was revealed to him (and him only) in the Music? Not all of these need to be answered on screen, but, for which questions we want to avoid answering, we have to figure out how to avoid prompting them in the drama.

Also, we should be careful with using Glorfindel in the frame, because it might decrease the dramatic power of his death.
 
dietlbomb said:
One thing the frame needs to accomplish in this season is to acquaint the viewers with the nature of elves.
Click to expand...

I agree that that is both the whole point of this season and a difficult task. Ummmm...good luck? :p



Also, we should be careful with using Glorfindel in the frame, because it might decrease the dramatic power of his death.
Click to expand...

HMMM, I don't think I agree. If anything, it will make Glorfindel's death more shocking, because the audience will *know* he's around later, so will be expecting him to survive his encounter with a balrog. Of course, disappearing by falling off a cliff with a balrog only to return later will prefigure a certain scene with Gandalf, and might be considered repetitive.
 
We have been charged by the Execs to spend more time with this thread. I realize it's tricky to have good ideas, but....we do need them!
 
Are there any good films or shows with similar characters and relationships we could use as a road map for the drama of the frame? I'm struggling to think of some, but it might help to get the ball rolling.
 
This isn't really comparable, but the other day I was thinking about the main characters on episodic procedural shows (crime, hospital dramas, mostly). There is the 'crisis of the week' featuring some crime or medical complication, and this unfolds in a predictable way (opening scene with no 'known' characters in which the body is found or the person collapses...etc) Meanwhile, in the background, we have our main characters who are dealing with that problem, but also have personal drama ongoing which makes the interest of the show. That tends to unfold over an entire season. A will they/won't they that leads up to a proposal/marriage, a sudden death or ominous diagnosis, etc. The relationships of the main characters (doctors, CSI techs, whatever) is what drives the interest in the show and makes the fans want to see what will happen in the next week. One-off guest appearances are fine, and the crime/patient is what is driving the plot....but it's the overarching story of the season that draws people in.

This is...difficult to use, though. We have such a static frame. There won't be any sudden deaths or romances, no secret child turning up on a doorstep or whatever invented soap opera drama you can come up with. Arwen's flashbacks to her mother might be quite poignant, but it's not going to be gripping. It's hard to see how we would have any shocking news. Our biggest 'reveal' is going to be that Arwen's mother isn't really dead, but just across the sea waiting for her. But that is something our characters have known all along.

So....yeah, it's tricky.
 
Thus far, the script writing team has done the following:

Episode 1 - Arwen reminisces about her mother being captured by orcs, and talks to Celeborn who tells her that fear and loss was always there, from the beginning.

Episode 2 - Arwen greets Galadriel for a festival of the stars in Lothlorien, but the festival is different from the one Arwen remembers from Rivendell - there is no reference to Elbereth in the songs of the elves of Lorien. Arwen discusses her surprise with Celeborn and Galadriel.

Episode 3 - Arwen's brothers Elladan and Elrohir come to visit, and they discuss their reasons for delaying their departure from Middle Earth. (They will stick around for multiple episodes.) No Celeborn or Galadriel in this one.

Episode 4 - Arwen looks into the Mirror of Galadriel and witnesses the rescue of her mother by her brothers. She tells Celeborn that the knowledge doesn't help as much as she thought it would. No Elladan and Elrohir in this one.


Obviously, this can be changed. I'm just sharing where the script writing team has gone with the ideas that have been discussed. You'll note that Arwen's mentor departing from Rivendell for the Grey Havens has *not* come up, and the reason for that is that we can only introduce her in flashbacks to Rivendell, which seems like a lot of work to set up. We've limited flashbacks to Celebrían thus far. The problem the mentor solves is the timeline and the delay of Arwen dealing with grief (as new grief does tend to reopen old wounds)...but we have not yet introduced the timeline to be able to address that issue. So, we are saving that subplot for later (for now).
 
So... I think we need to brainstorm pretty freely, and not care if the ideas are good or bad. Bad ideas can be used to make good ones.
... But I guess it's hard even to come up with bad ideas...

One idea:

  • Arwen's mentor stops at Lothlorien to say goodbye. It's better to see her before she says she's leaving, so we can see for ourselves that she's important to Arwen. This could be in the episode with the fading of Míriel.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top