From class tonight: To Find Them

[Matt DeForrest]

Hello, everyone! Corey asked me to post this question here. The Ring poem reads:

Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

So, here Is the question: What is meant by “to find them”? Initially, I thought it was that the One somehow finds the Rings of Power and draw them (and their wearers) under the Dominion of the One. You can’t start to dominate if you don’t know where the dominated is.

In our discussion of the manner by which the One Ring influences others, however, I began to suspect that was insufficient. After all, if the One is impacting people across time as well as space, the need to locate becomes less important.

Anyone have any thoughts?

 

[Anthony Lawther]

I haven't listened to the discussion yet, so forgive me if this repeats or ignores any of the points made.

Given the origins of find meaning "to come upon, meet with; discover; obtain by search or study" I think that physical location is only one element. I think it also means to discover the purposes of the wielders of the other rings (knowing their minds), perhaps to best develop the means by which to subvert and then subjugate them.

By deflecting the purposes of the ring-bearers to a new course, the wielder of the One could potentially manipulate them into domination without having to completely overwhelm their wills firsts.
So, an example might be if Galadriel was encouraged, under influence of the One, to stretch the coverage of protection beyond Anduin to cover the areas of Southern Mirkwood that were once under the care of Lothlorien. While this would seem to be a caring, protective action aligned with her desire to protect Lothlorien and its people, it also potentially reduces the level of protection offered to the current territory, making Lothlorien more vulnerable to attacks.
These attacks could then provide an excuse for Galadriel directing ever more drastic actions to protect Lothlorien, pushing her slowly toward a fall of her own.

A direct assault might not be successful, but an indirect assault might be successful.

Similarly, with Three elven rings to be influenced, Sauron could nudge the bearers of these rings into conflict with each other, potentially drawing them to him individually, looking for help in their struggles with each other. Discord among free peoples has always served the purposes of the tyrannical, and a willing vassal wielding one of the Three would be an asset, while a crushed enemy might leave Sauron's forces weakened.

I can believe that the fall of the Nine mortals was not entirely free of conflict. It may be that some of the first to fall served as antagonists to some of the others, allowing Sauron to appear as a saviour to them, before enslaving them.

Influencing over time might only be an after effect. None of the bearers of the One seem to have been affected before their possession, so maybe it's just that once the One has its hooks in you there's no true relief.

 

[Ardent Crayon]

For the Nine and the Seven, it could be that the One literally tracks their location, so that even if they failed to corrupt their bearers, Sauron could find them and take or destroy them. This may be what happened to the Dwarf Lords. The Three, however, would not be subject to tracking. Indeed I never quite understood how the One was supposed to “bind” the Three, if Sauron never touched them.

 

[Arnthro]

Does "them" only refer to the other rings? The Nazgul's wills and spirits are already bound on account of their rings correct?

"Rule them," "find them," "bring them," "bind them," - do our bearers of the One Ring inherit Sauron's will to rule, find, bring, and bind them? Does "them" still and/or always mean the other rings?

 

[amysrevenge]

Ha never thought of this in my life. You're right that the obvious first-choice meaning of "find" kind of doesn't fit. Like, I don't think it's a little radar unit or something. But find as in the result of research... there's something in there.

 

[Jim Deutch]

I think that physical location is only one element.

There is an even more alluring meaning of "find" than the "as a result of a search":

ARCHAIC: reach the understanding or conscience of (someone).
"the books of which I have been speaking found me and taught me"

The connotation of a deep connection in this usage fits well with "rule them" and "bind them".

Now "bring them" seems to be the outlier! Is it to be assumed that this means "bring them to Sauron"? (sorry I haven't heard the episode yet)

 

[Anthony Lawther]

There is an even more alluring meaning of "find" than the "as a result of a search":

The connotation of a deep connection in this usage fits well with "rule them" and "bind them".

Now "bring them" seems to be the outlier! Is it to be assumed that this means "bring them to Sauron"? (sorry I haven't heard the episode yet)

I'm now up to episode 98, and this use of find also seems to align with the use of find in relation to the splinter of the Morgul blade: less about physical location and more about reaching understanding.

 

[Flammifer]

Although, "find them!", could well mean more than just physically locate them. The simple definition of physically locate them is the one that fits most with, "bring them all!"

An obvious sequence would be; "Find them! Bring them! Rule them! In the darkness bind them!" (In this sequence they would be 'found', then 'brought' then 'ruled', and, finally, 'bound' to that rule.

However, the actual sequence is; "Rule them! Find them, Bring them, Bind them!" This suggests that they can be "ruled" before they are 'found', 'brought' or 'bound'.

On the other hand, we know from Gandalf, in "The Shadow of the Past", (and, will soon learn from Elrond, in "The Council of Elrond"), that when the elves became aware that the One Ring was forged, the Three were 'hid' from him. That 'hiding' is what protected them from being 'ruled' and 'bound'. So, that would seem to imply that 'finding' is, indeed, the necessary first step for the One Ring (or its wielder) to exert its domination over the other Rings (or their wielders).

If the One Ring could 'rule' without 'finding' (and, perhaps, 'bringing') then hiding the Three would have been futile.

Perhaps the correct reading could be: "Rule them all! (Main purpose of the One Ring) But, to do that, it is necessary, first, to 'Find them! Bring them! and Bind them!' (Secondary purposes). That would explain the actual sequence engraved in the gold.

In any case, the fact that being 'ruled' by the One Ring can be thwarted by hiding the Three, and the fact that 'finding' is followed by 'bringing', leads me to think that 'find them' simply means to locate them, perhaps geographically, perhaps 'mentally', perhaps, both.

 

[Anthony Lawther]

Although, "find them!", could well mean more than just physically locate them. The simple definition of physically locate them is the one that fits most with, "bring them all!"

An obvious sequence would be; "Find them! Bring them! Rule them! In the darkness bind them!" (In this sequence they would be 'found', then 'brought' then 'ruled', and, finally, 'bound' to that rule.

However, the actual sequence is; "Rule them! Find them, Bring them, Bind them!" This suggests that they can be "ruled" before they are 'found', 'brought' or 'bound'.

On the other hand, we know from Gandalf, in "The Shadow of the Past", (and, will soon learn from Elrond, in "The Council of Elrond"), that when the elves became aware that the One Ring was forged, the Three were 'hid' from him. That 'hiding' is what protected them from being 'ruled' and 'bound'. So, that would seem to imply that 'finding' is, indeed, the necessary first step for the One Ring (or its wielder) to exert its domination over the other Rings (or their wielders).

If the One Ring could 'rule' without 'finding' (and, perhaps, 'bringing') then hiding the Three would have been futile.

Perhaps the correct reading could be: "Rule them all! (Main purpose of the One Ring) But, to do that, it is necessary, first, to 'Find them! Bring them! and Bind them!' (Secondary purposes). That would explain the actual sequence engraved in the gold.

In any case, the fact that being 'ruled' by the One Ring can be thwarted by hiding the Three, and the fact that 'finding' is followed by 'bringing', leads me to think that 'find them' simply means to locate them, perhaps geographically, perhaps 'mentally', perhaps, both.

The 'hiding' of the Three was achieved by their wearers removing them until Sauron had been defeated and stripped of the One.

I agree with the sequencing: Ruling them requires finding, bringing, and binding in that order.
The primary realm of operation of the Rings appears to be spiritual.
So I would read it as "To rule the spirits (wills) of the other Ring wielders, I need to understand their wills (find them), corrupt their wills to align them with mine (bring them), and force their compliance while preventing any rebellion (bind them)" None of this requires geographic location of the Rings, but apparently does require physical possession of the One to achieve.

Sauron may have built a lo-jack into the Seven and the Nine, but without being involved in the making of the Three it seems unlikely that the Three can be found in that sense.
Additionally, a physically located, brought, and bound Ring wielder provides Sauron little to no benefit if they remain spiritually defiant. On the other hand, an apparently free agent that is spiritually dominated (as we see with the Nine) makes for the most powerful servants Sauron can hope for.

 

[Flammifer]

Hi Anthony,

I like your post, and agree with it. The most important 'finding, bringing, and binding' to be done by the One Ring, over the others is spiritual, rather than physical. I also think that they need to be 'found, brought, bound' before they can effectively be ruled, and that this is mostly a spiritual effect.

However, I am uncertain as to whether it is purely a spiritual effect. Physical presence seems to have some impact and importance. Gollum was brought into the physical presence of Sauron (though, of course, neither had a Ring at the time). Sauron, in his guise as the Necromancer, had Thrain, and the last of the Seven Dwarven Rings, physically brought to him in Dol Guldor, where he took the Ring from Thrain with torment. (Though Sauron had not the One Ring at the time.) So, even though the main effect is probably spiritual, physical 'bringing and binding' may also be useful in establishing Rule over the other Rings.

 

[Anthony Lawther]

Hi Anthony,

I like your post, and agree with it. The most important 'finding, bringing, and binding' to be done by the One Ring, over the others is spiritual, rather than physical. I also think that they need to be 'found, brought, bound' before they can effectively be ruled, and that this is mostly a spiritual effect.

However, I am uncertain as to whether it is purely a spiritual effect. Physical presence seems to have some impact and importance. Gollum was brought into the physical presence of Sauron (though, of course, neither had a Ring at the time). Sauron, in his guise as the Necromancer, had Thrain, and the last of the Seven Dwarven Rings, physically brought to him in Dol Guldor, where he took the Ring from Thrain with torment. (Though Sauron had not the One Ring at the time.) So, even though the main effect is probably spiritual, physical 'bringing and binding' may also be useful in establishing Rule over the other Rings.

I would consider these to be counter-cases, showing what Sauron is reduced to doing without the One ring. It actually provides some insight into why he helped create the rings in the first place: No more sending the goons to break knees, or drag people in for torture and questioning, just direct their actions from a distance.

As Sauron is driven by the desire for Order this seems to fit nicely.

I'd say that the evidence we have suggests that the only physical proximity that matters is the possession of the rings in the first place.

 

[Arnthro]

The ruling, finding, bringing, and binding of "them all" applies only to Sauron (or possibly immortals?) correct?

When Bilbo, (or any mortal?) put on The One Ring, do they then know where the three Elven rings are, or control the will of the Nazgul?
…… or visa versa, the bearers of the three don't sense someone other than Sauron has The One Ring on as they were able to when Sauron wore it?

Doesn't Gandalf say somewhere that someone would have to learn and work hard at mastering The One Rings' power anyway, so anything beyond invisibility would have to be learned (kids running around so I'm not going to find it in books).

The invisibility thing makes me wonder if it is an instinctual defense mechanism of The One Ring.
The One Ring turns it's new, inexperienced bearer invisible so no one OTHER than Sauron (and Nazgul) can find them. It could make sense in that Sauron and Nazgul (and Bombadil) are seemingly the only ones able to see through the invisibility.