Flammifer
Well-Known Member
Although I agree that the outcome from Gandalf’s battle on Weathertop, and flight from it turned out OK due to Providence, I don’t think that Gandalf had any choices or plans to make once he fled Weathertop. His actions, until he reached the Ettenmoors, were compelled by the Nazgul, and the only course available to save his life.
First, Gandalf must have been losing the battle on Weathertop. All he says is, “I was hard put to it indeed.” But, if he were winning, or holding his own, why escape and flee north? Gandalf has said that he doubted he could prevail against all Nine together. I assume this proved true.
Second, Gandalf was probably weakened or wounded in the battle. Why? Well the Witch King (who we assume is not an idiot) only sends four Riders to chase Gandalf. If Gandalf could defeat four Riders, the Witch King would have sent more. He probably thought, “We have wounded him and weakened him. Two or three Riders could probably take him down. But, I will send four, just to make sure.”
Gandalf says, “At sunrise I escaped and fled towards the north. I could not hope to do more.” I imagine Gandalf desperately holding on for sunrise, hoping that when Day Would Come Again, the Nine would be at least slightly discomfited and weakened. It proved to be true, and he managed to burst through their siege of the old ring of Amon Sul. I don’t think he had much choice of which direction to run. He saw a chance to break out to the north, and off he went.
Now Gandalf is fleeing, with four in pursuit. Their instructions are to catch and kill him if possible, or, at least to harry him off and away from the game board. “Don’t let him go east, or double back around you to the west!”
Ah, but what about Shadowfax? Wasn’t he so much faster than the horses of the Nazgul that he could easily outrun them and then turn east or west? Well, no! Read Appendix B. The horses of the Nazgul are just as fast as Shadowfax from the Fords of Isen to the Shire. Shadowfax cannot outrun them on the escape from Weathertop. (The notion that JRRT made careless mistakes or discrepancies in Appendix B compared to the text strikes me as dubious. He is often answering some question that arises in the text. I wrote a post a few weeks ago titled, ‘Why does JRRT cast doubt on Gandalf’s paean to Shadowfax in Appendix B?’. Well, now we know why! Gandalf was considering this possible note from a questioning reader: “Why didn’t Gandalf on Shadowfax just outrun the Riders, race to Rivendell, gather an army of Elrond and Elves, and sweep the Nazgul from the area?” He had prepared his retort: “Haven’t you read Appendix B? Shadowfax is no faster than the Nine. He couldn’t get away from the Four.”)
Actually, you don’t even need to read Appendix B to suspect that the horses of the Nine are just as fast as Shadowfax. It’s all in the text. Gandalf says, “I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sun-down on my second day from Bree – and they were there before me.” (Note the hyphen. An unusual punctuation for JRRT. I suspect it is there just to encourage the reader to stop and think. “Wait! What! I thought Shadowfax was a magic horse, way faster than the horses of the Nine. How did they beat Gandalf to Weathertop, when he was galloping like a gale?”) OK, the Nine may have left earlier than Gandalf. He left Bree at dawn, one day after the Nazgul attack on the Pony. They may have left Bree almost a day before Gandalf. But, they had to “return to their Captain with tidings”, and he was out of their way to the south of Bree. Still, they beat Gandalf to Weathertop. Shadowfax really cannot be much faster than the horses of the Nine.
Escaping from Weathertop, Gandalf, “hoped to reach Rivendell ahead of you (Frodo and Co) and send out help”. Well Gandalf did reach Rivendell before Frodo, but not as much before as he would have liked. I guess that was because he could not. Of course, Gandalf would have liked to dodge around the pursuing Four, either to the east or west, and double back south. But he could not. The Nazgul were too hot on his heels, herding him north, and he was too weakened or wounded to try to fight them.
Once Gandalf made it into the Ettenmoors where horses could not travel, Shadowfax, relieved of the weight of a rider, presumably was able to race around the flanks of the pursuit and escape (helped perhaps by the Nazgul not being too interested in a riderless horse). With Gandalf now on foot, the Four presumably thought he was removed from the field of play, and decided to return to the hunt for the Ring, rather than abandon their own horses and chase Gandalf into the Ettenmoors.
(By the way, how do you envision the Ettenmoors? “I could not ride among the rocks of the troll-fells.” I can only think of two types of rocky terrain impassable to horses; jagged lava fields, and boulder fields. Any others? Which? I favor a boulder field – source of the perhaps not so spiritual boulders we have already encountered?)
(By the way, using Shogoki’s useful interactive map as the reference, I make Gandalf’s journey from Weathertop to Rivendell to be about 330 miles. Roughly 200 on Shadowfax, and 130 on foot. It took Gandalf “nearly fourteen days”. So, he averaged 23 miles per day.)
So, as to the discussion about, ‘why did Gandalf make the choices he did when fleeing from Weathertop?’ I don’t think Gandalf made any choices, good or bad, when fleeing from Weathertop. He just took the only actions he could to prevent being caught and defeated by the Nazgul. And, he was lucky (if luck you call it) that he was able to escape defeat by the Nazgul.
If we want to look at Gandalf’s choices, and whether he could have made better choices, I suggest that when he first reached Weathertop, and found the Nine there before him, he might perhaps then have been best served by wheeling Shadowfax and galloping for Rivendell. That might have been a better plan than letting the Nazgul ‘withdraw before him’ and lingering on Weathertop until they ‘closed round’ at night?
First, Gandalf must have been losing the battle on Weathertop. All he says is, “I was hard put to it indeed.” But, if he were winning, or holding his own, why escape and flee north? Gandalf has said that he doubted he could prevail against all Nine together. I assume this proved true.
Second, Gandalf was probably weakened or wounded in the battle. Why? Well the Witch King (who we assume is not an idiot) only sends four Riders to chase Gandalf. If Gandalf could defeat four Riders, the Witch King would have sent more. He probably thought, “We have wounded him and weakened him. Two or three Riders could probably take him down. But, I will send four, just to make sure.”
Gandalf says, “At sunrise I escaped and fled towards the north. I could not hope to do more.” I imagine Gandalf desperately holding on for sunrise, hoping that when Day Would Come Again, the Nine would be at least slightly discomfited and weakened. It proved to be true, and he managed to burst through their siege of the old ring of Amon Sul. I don’t think he had much choice of which direction to run. He saw a chance to break out to the north, and off he went.
Now Gandalf is fleeing, with four in pursuit. Their instructions are to catch and kill him if possible, or, at least to harry him off and away from the game board. “Don’t let him go east, or double back around you to the west!”
Ah, but what about Shadowfax? Wasn’t he so much faster than the horses of the Nazgul that he could easily outrun them and then turn east or west? Well, no! Read Appendix B. The horses of the Nazgul are just as fast as Shadowfax from the Fords of Isen to the Shire. Shadowfax cannot outrun them on the escape from Weathertop. (The notion that JRRT made careless mistakes or discrepancies in Appendix B compared to the text strikes me as dubious. He is often answering some question that arises in the text. I wrote a post a few weeks ago titled, ‘Why does JRRT cast doubt on Gandalf’s paean to Shadowfax in Appendix B?’. Well, now we know why! Gandalf was considering this possible note from a questioning reader: “Why didn’t Gandalf on Shadowfax just outrun the Riders, race to Rivendell, gather an army of Elrond and Elves, and sweep the Nazgul from the area?” He had prepared his retort: “Haven’t you read Appendix B? Shadowfax is no faster than the Nine. He couldn’t get away from the Four.”)
Actually, you don’t even need to read Appendix B to suspect that the horses of the Nine are just as fast as Shadowfax. It’s all in the text. Gandalf says, “I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sun-down on my second day from Bree – and they were there before me.” (Note the hyphen. An unusual punctuation for JRRT. I suspect it is there just to encourage the reader to stop and think. “Wait! What! I thought Shadowfax was a magic horse, way faster than the horses of the Nine. How did they beat Gandalf to Weathertop, when he was galloping like a gale?”) OK, the Nine may have left earlier than Gandalf. He left Bree at dawn, one day after the Nazgul attack on the Pony. They may have left Bree almost a day before Gandalf. But, they had to “return to their Captain with tidings”, and he was out of their way to the south of Bree. Still, they beat Gandalf to Weathertop. Shadowfax really cannot be much faster than the horses of the Nine.
Escaping from Weathertop, Gandalf, “hoped to reach Rivendell ahead of you (Frodo and Co) and send out help”. Well Gandalf did reach Rivendell before Frodo, but not as much before as he would have liked. I guess that was because he could not. Of course, Gandalf would have liked to dodge around the pursuing Four, either to the east or west, and double back south. But he could not. The Nazgul were too hot on his heels, herding him north, and he was too weakened or wounded to try to fight them.
Once Gandalf made it into the Ettenmoors where horses could not travel, Shadowfax, relieved of the weight of a rider, presumably was able to race around the flanks of the pursuit and escape (helped perhaps by the Nazgul not being too interested in a riderless horse). With Gandalf now on foot, the Four presumably thought he was removed from the field of play, and decided to return to the hunt for the Ring, rather than abandon their own horses and chase Gandalf into the Ettenmoors.
(By the way, how do you envision the Ettenmoors? “I could not ride among the rocks of the troll-fells.” I can only think of two types of rocky terrain impassable to horses; jagged lava fields, and boulder fields. Any others? Which? I favor a boulder field – source of the perhaps not so spiritual boulders we have already encountered?)
(By the way, using Shogoki’s useful interactive map as the reference, I make Gandalf’s journey from Weathertop to Rivendell to be about 330 miles. Roughly 200 on Shadowfax, and 130 on foot. It took Gandalf “nearly fourteen days”. So, he averaged 23 miles per day.)
So, as to the discussion about, ‘why did Gandalf make the choices he did when fleeing from Weathertop?’ I don’t think Gandalf made any choices, good or bad, when fleeing from Weathertop. He just took the only actions he could to prevent being caught and defeated by the Nazgul. And, he was lucky (if luck you call it) that he was able to escape defeat by the Nazgul.
If we want to look at Gandalf’s choices, and whether he could have made better choices, I suggest that when he first reached Weathertop, and found the Nine there before him, he might perhaps then have been best served by wheeling Shadowfax and galloping for Rivendell. That might have been a better plan than letting the Nazgul ‘withdraw before him’ and lingering on Weathertop until they ‘closed round’ at night?