Gandalf versus the Nine (citation request)

Tollers

New Member
What is the data point the course is referencing at times that Gandalf does not think he can face all nine?
Does he not do this even from the early drafts?
 
Perhaps the passage in 'The Council of Elrond', where Gandalf recounts his fight with the Nine on Weathertop? "I was hard put to it indeed: such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old. At sunrise I escaped and fled towards the north. I could not hope to do more."?

Gandalf was 'hard put to it indeed' by all the Nine together. He could not defeat them. He had to escape and flee.
 
This is what I'd put as evidence that he did fine against all nine even if "hard put," and his goal was to distract and not defeat, but in the class sessions the thought that he cannot face all nine comes up before the session (and several times) this passage arrives.
 
Perhaps more that Gandalf barely survived and narrowly escaped from the Nine, rather than 'he did fine'. In this same section, Gandalf says, "They (the Nazgul) drew away from me, for they felt the coming of my anger and they dared not face it while the Sun was in the sky. But they closed round at night....at sunrise I escaped and fled towards the north." This seems to me to indicate that the Nazgul feared Gandalf during the first day. At Night, they were much more confident in their power and ability to attack. Even though Gandalf managed to survive the night, and the sunrise came again, he no longer believed that even by day he could defeat the Nazgul. Instead, he had to escape and flee. If Gandalf had thought he could defeat the Nine once Day had come again, I suggest he would have fought on. Nothing could have been better for the safety of the Ring than to defeat or drive off the Nine. Gandalf could not, it seems, attack again. He barely survived the night, and now was lucky to be able to escape.

However, there may be other evidence which I cannot recall?
 
hmm. Yea, I do not see that. Gandalf's "job" is not to defeat them, but he clearly wants to pull them away and does succeed in it. He wants them to chase him to open up the path. "Escaping" does indicate he was hard pressed. Appreciate the comments and thoughts!
 
I think I found it as it had been stated for several episodes leading up to the one where Gandalf fights/escapes, therefore, I started going backward in the text. It appears to be when Gandalf and Radagast are talking.

"My heart sank. For even the Wise might fear to withstand the Nine, when they are gathered together under their fell chieftain. A great king and sorcerer he was of old, and now he wields a deadly fear." (FotR 274)

I take from this and earlier discussions on Weathertop and the Witch King's B+ performance at night is that the Hobbits+Strider+Song are more in this situation than perhaps the Wise potentially as that was 6 versus 5 (including Bill the Pony and Witch King). I also take the Witch King did not have prior a "deadly fear" skill, which it appears he used at Osgiliath.

I also note that he says "might," and that he did withstand (at least for a day and a night) and did so after a long, tiresome horseback riding cross-continent (my family horseback rides and I can attest would drain nearly anyone) and on top of that stress and anxiety piled on top wears one down even as much if not more than the cross-continent feat. With only one decent rest after a relief from BB, he holds his ground.

I was asking about "face" all nine of them.

My main point was I had only just got to the episode where Gandalf describes the battle and states "I could not hope to do more," and the claim Gandalf could not "take" or "face" or "withstand" all nine (and once the WK) was repeated prior to this recent section in the class and for at least 10 prior that Gandalf "knew" he cannot take on the nine, which is why the citation is not the one I was looking for. The only reference I can find prior to this episode is the one I cited above with the word "might" and it is not clear to me after his battle and the circumstances around it that he did not "withstand" them and adding the Wise would bring a bunch more estel, goodness, umph.
 
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hmm. Yea, I do not see that. Gandalf's "job" is not to defeat them, but he clearly wants to pull them away and does succeed in it. He wants them to chase him to open up the path. "Escaping" does indicate he was hard pressed. Appreciate the comments and thoughts!

I think that Gandalf's statement, "I could not hope to do more" (more than escape and draw some of them off). Indicates that Gandalf realizes that it would have been optimal if he had been able to 'do more' (such as defeat the Nine, or drive them off to the West or South), but is explaining to the Council why he could not. (He was battered, exhausted, and almost defeated during the night, and, even with the coming of the Sun, all he could do was escape and flee). (If he had not had Shadowfax, would this have been the downfall of Gandalf?) Of course Gandalf understates just how desperate and near to defeat he was. But that is just Gandalf.
 
Gandalf's battle against the Nine on Weathertop is the most underplayed and underreported major battle in TLOTR. I think many readers tend to discount it because we only get Gandalf's terse summary at the Council, and the Hobbit narrators only saw it from afar.

What should clue us in to the epic nature of this battle is the word hope, the most important word in TLOTR, and perhaps the major theme. When Gandalf says, "I could not hope to do more", this should lead us to elevate the importance of this fight, and pay more attention to it.

Does Gandalf ever say "I could not hope", anywhere else?

If we pay attention to the text, we realize that Gandalf instigates this fight. "They were there (Weathertop) before me. They drew away from me, for they felt the coming of my anger and they dared not face it while the Sun was in the sky." Gandalf sees the Riders, and charges towards them, burning with anger (perhaps much of it aimed at himself). Gandalf attacks! If he could destroy, cripple, or drive off the Riders, this would very much protect the Ring, and improve the chances of the Hobbits, led by Strider, making it to Rivendell.

Gandalf attacks knowing it is likely to be a desperate struggle, and perhaps a losing one, as he said to the Council, when recounting his conversation with Radaghast, "My heart sank. For even the Wise might fear to withstand the Nine, when they are gathered together under their fell chieftain. A great king and sorcerer he was of old, and now he wields a deadly fear."

The Riders evade Gandalf's attack, and 'draw away' while the daylight lasts. But, they are not giving up, nor fleeing. They are waiting for the Dark. Gandalf, presumably, would not have needed to continue this battle into the Night. He could have evaded on Shadowfax and gotten away (just as he did later). He does not. Driven by his anger, he decides to defend the hilltop and fight on through the Night!

Not a great decision! When Gandalf says, "I was hard put to it indeed", I read this as "I was almost defeated". Gandalf was correct when he thought that, "even the Wise might fear to withstand the Nine, when they are gathered together under their fell chieftain".

In the end, even once Day has come again, Gandalf and Shadowfax run for their lives. Gandalf, "could not hope to do more". No Estel. No Amdir. No chance of defeating or damaging the Nine. Gandalf was fortunate that this battle was not his last.

We can guess how wounded and damaged Gandalf was by this battle, because even when pursued by only 4 of the Riders (and not the Witch King) Gandalf does not try to turn and attack them, but keeps on fleeing!
 
Really excellent thread, by the way, with close attention to language in the instant case as well as comparisons to other usages. Nicely done all.
 
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