Gandalf's rhetorical style

[Rachel Port]

In the last class, Corey said that Gandalf probably didn't think of melting the butter out of Butterbur while he was riding towards Bree in despair, but is using humor in telling the tale to the council. This helped me clarify something that came up in another discussion, about Gandalf reporting that he put the fear of fire into Gollum. I kept feeling that there was something less terrible about this than it seemed. Granted, I have a soft spot for Gandalf, but finally I realized that we don't see Gandalf doing anything to Gollum, and that the phrase fits with his style of talking. And the only act we witness is Gandalf talking to the council. (Correction, thanks to Flammifer - the fear of fire comment comes in chapter two, when he is telling Frodo about the Ring, not in the council.)

In some of these classes on Gandalf's report to the council I forget that we are in a room filled with people, but are actually witnessing and analyzing the story he is telling. Certainly I felt that way with his discussion with Saruman. But it's worth considering his style and his purpose in telling the story as he does. I think I have always taken that fear of fire phrase as showing his impatience with Gollum's lies and whining - it is Gandalf describing his feelings while interrogating Gollum. This is his first time meeting Gollum, and I can imagine his horror on seeing what the Ring has done to him. Now, he has probably checked up on Bilbo a number of times over the 17 years since Bilbo left the Shire, and seen signs of healing as well as damage from the Ring. Bilbo tells Frodo that Gandalf and Elrond have talked to him about the Ring, and I don't think that was only since Gandalf arrived at Rivendell. Now seeing Gollum rouses both pity and fear, and probably a bit of the disgust Aragorn obviously felt. And an even greater sense of urgency in his need to see Frodo. Is this what Gandalf wants to communicate to the council - perhaps especially to Frodo and Bilbo?

 

[Deleted member 207]

I think that’s the case.

I just think Gandalf was incarnated as a bit of a fusty grumpy English professor with a hidden soft side (and a very hidden bad ass side).

I feel like I’ve met a fair few Gandalfs. Normally they’re at the pub

 

[amysrevenge]

There's definitely a lot of space here for this to be an idiom. If I heard that a co-worker was chastised by a manager in the terms "he put the fear of God in him" I wouldn't immediately leap to assume that there was a heated theological discussion in the office.

 

[Deleted member 207]

I think we sometimes think too much about what character’s words 'mean' in a bigger sense picture i.e how do the words Gandalf says relate to his existence as a Maiar (Tolkien's expansive legendarium does lend to this) and we don’t always balance it with what the intended tonal meaning is for the character in the moment, as a reader unfamiliar with the legendarium would receive it to be i.e. Gandalf in this moment appears frustrated and angry.

It's similar to trying to work out who Tom Bombadil is. 'He is'.

 

[Flammifer]

Hi Rachel,

Just a correction. Gandalf does not talk about 'putting the fear of fire' on Gollum when reporting to the Council. This phrase is used by him back in 'The Shadow of the Past' when talking to Frodo.

 

[Rachel Port]

Thanks for the correction Flammifer. I obviously was thinking of the different ways he tells the story in those two places and got that mixed up.

It is interesting, then - it does have to do with what he wants Frodo to know even more than I was postulating. I hadn't really thought about what Gandalf must have been feeling when he finally met Gollum, when he thought of Bilbo and Frodo. I'm sure he has visited Bilbo at Rivendell periodically over the years to see how he is recovering. When he is telling Frodo about the Ring, his main object is getting Frodo to understand just what the danger is, and perhaps to reassure him in a way about Bilbo. In the council, it almost seems like a different story. He is adding his story to Aragorn's of finding Gollum. I just began rereading The Council of Elrond - I think I'll go back and compare the two accounts more closely to follow this line of thinking and see where it leads.

I've been enjoying this debate very much - it's made me think more deeply about aspects of the story than I have before.

 

[Rachel Port]

Hi again Flammifer -

Okay, back from rereading the two accounts Gandalf gives of his meetings with Gollum. They are pretty far apart in the book, and even more so in the class episodes, so perhaps it's not surprising that I never thought to do it before. As I said the difference seems to be Gandalf's need to communicate different things to different audiences. The talk with Frodo is more intimate, and Gandalf is most concerned with communicating the danger of the Ring and helping Frodo to understand a little more about it. Part of that is testing for the fire writing, but also gauging how far Frodo is under the Ring's influence. He emphasizes Gollum's connection to hobbits, and the effect the Ring has had on him. If anything, he wants to put the fear of fire into Frodo. I see no reason to change my thoughts about his use of the fear of fire phrase. Frodo is more familiar with the grumpy side of Gandalf's tongue than most of the council is, knowing him as an old man who brings adventure and news of the world outside the Shire, and creates great fireworks shows and smoke rings, not as one of the wise.

His visit to Frodo is part of the story he is telling to the council, mostly what he found there. His interrogation of Gollum is given as how he connected the ring that Bilbo found with the One Ring. His telling, with Aragorn, of the search for Gollum, as well as the interrogation, is more geographic. He is less concerned with Gollum's personal history than with his travels and how Sauron learned of the Ring and the Shire. It is part of the story of Gandalf's research, part of the evidence presented to the council so they can decide what to do next.