Gondolin

[Ange1e4e5]

Gondolin will be debuting at the end of this season, and Turgon will make it into a near-perfect replica of Tirion, complete with gold and silver trees. Tirion is obviously going to be a factor in the appearance of Gondolin, but are there any other factors that could be used in the aesthetic of Gondolin?

The thread on Tirion.

 

[Haerangil]

I think i would generally go with karen wynn fonstadts map and the Ted nasmith illustration...

But one could easily add more details, for example the surrounding agricultural landscape of tumladen vale, the position of Anghabar mines in the north, the sectet escape tunnel , the mines and quarries beneath the city... one thing i would want is a giant water reservoir somewhere close to the cities outer wall!

 

[Haerangil]

We could a tually collect some favourite illustrations...

An artist named Karolina Węgrzyn drew thus fantastic map:

An artist named bmosig painted this beautiful version:

 

[Ange1e4e5]

We could a tually collect some favourite illustrations...

An artist named Karolina Węgrzyn drew thus fantastic map:

An artist named bmosig painted this beautiful version:



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Which entrance is the one that Tuor and Voronwe use to enter Gondolin?

 

[Haerangil]

What do you mean exactly? The seven gates guarded the orfalch echor, not the city itself.. after passing the gate of steel Tuor would have entered Gondolin via the great main gate i guess, bevause that was where the great road led.The north gate was a smaller secondary gate.. i don't know what purpose it served but i guess it lead to the road leading to the northern mines...

 

[Haerangil]

Ok after our gondolin excourse in the episode threat...

Like this maybe?

 

[Haerangil]

I mean... i thought to continue the ideas we had for Tirion and Alqualonde according to which, while the Noldor are perfectionists and architects and are able to plan a city from scratch...

...WITHIN their city outline the elves live a pretty much individualist lifestyle, every house is pretty much a sole standing villa rustica, with gardens, greens everything.

I took most inspiration from wynn-fonstadts map, tolkiens sketch and the pictures i had posted above... this version of gondolin consists out of few really large roads but many patchwork-villae estates, has a large reservoir of freshwater, but also many green parks, artificial channels and fountains...

The city is not really on one level but has two higher rings, which are however still lower than turgon's central tower -another detail gondolin shares with tirion! There are about 700 buildings, most of which are quite large, but the largest ones are real big complexes so a big population can easily live here without feeling too compressed.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

As promised, the Gondolin Luxury Tower Apartments!

 

[Rhiannon]

As promised, the Gondolin Luxury Tower Apartments!

That was amazing! What I think I liked most was the blue decorations on the exterior of the building. Gondolin may be mostly built of white marble, but that doesn't mean everything is solid white. Having trees planted on the balcony gardens was an interesting choice. The trees would either need to be relocated they are small enough to still be moved, constantly trimmed to prevent them from growing too large, or the balconies would need to be large and strong enough to support the a mature tree and sufficient soil for its root system.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

That was amazing! What I think I liked most was the blue decorations on the exterior of the building. Gondolin may be mostly built of white marble, but that doesn't mean everything is solid white. Having trees planted on the balcony gardens was an interesting choice. The trees would either need to be relocated they are small enough to still be moved, constantly trimmed to prevent them from growing too large, or the balconies would need to be large and strong enough to support the a mature tree and sufficient soil for its root system.

Yeah, the one big tree was pushing it, I think, but also, Elves. I'm sure they can find clever ways to make the trees work.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Yeah, the one big tree was pushing it, I think, but also, Elves. I'm sure they can find clever ways to make the trees work.

I actually just did a mockup of the Nargothrond gates you drew, @Rhiannon. I'm going to record a quick walkthrough and try to get it posted shortly.

 

[Rhiannon]

Yeah, the one big tree was pushing it, I think, but also, Elves. I'm sure they can find clever ways to make the trees work.

Well, it is possible that the Elves could just sing to the trees and tell them to grow however they want. However, with long-term care, trees can be made grow into any number of shapes

or kept small and manageable to grow in urban spaces (Bonsai trees in their tiny pots would be an extreme example of this).

I guess its not so much a question of could Elves do this but would they. Getting a tree to grow over a river like a bridge in the forest, where it has room to grow and expand however it wants after that is one thing, but growing a tree on a balcony requires a lot of pruning and keeping the tree contained to severely limit its growth. Would Elves perceive this as too cruel?

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Well, it is possible that the Elves could just sing to the trees and tell them to grow however they want. However, with long-term care, trees can be made grow into any number of shapes

or kept small and manageable to grow in urban spaces (Bonsai trees in their tiny pots would be an extreme example of this).

I guess its not so much a question of could Elves do this but would they. Getting a tree to grow over a river like a bridge in the forest, where it has room to grow and expand however it wants after that is one thing, but growing a tree on a balcony requires a lot of pruning and keeping the tree contained to severely limit its growth. Would Elves perceive this as too cruel?

Maybe. Recycling their trees might not be difficult for them. Also, they could harvest root material from trees, keeping them from becoming rootbound while allowing the "essence" of the tree to live outside the container. I dunno. Maybe.

 

[Rhiannon]

Maybe. Recycling their trees might not be difficult for them. Also, they could harvest root material from trees, keeping them from becoming rootbound while allowing the "essence" of the tree to live outside the container. I dunno. Maybe.

I'm not sure that would work that way. Saruman could say he was allowing the "essence" of the trees of Fangorn to live outside their containers, but I don't think it would have made a difference to Treebeard.

There is also the question of practicality. If the Elves were growing a fruit tree, I think they would rather the tree grow further from the building and grow large enough to bear lots of fruit than grow close to the building with a more limited yield. The same with a tree they were planning to use for lumber. When allowed to grow relatively unrestrained, it would be more efficient in terms of yield, which I think Elves would prioritize over the convenience of having it closer.

Another consideration would be that Elves might like trees and want to keep them close. However, would this love outweigh the harm done to the tree by forcing it to live in a less-than-ideal environment?

 

[Haerangil]

I tptally love mindcraft!

 

[MithLuin]

Comments about the care and growing of fruit trees.

I am not sure what the climate of Gondolin is. A valley locked into the surrounding mountains certainly would have a unique weather pattern. So, hard to predict how mild the winters are, etc. But...they likely do have winters. So, any citrus-type trees will need to be sheltered indoors if they are going to survive there at all. Same with fig trees. I could imagine elves taking their trees inside in the winter, and then putting them back outside in the spring. Even if that is very French aristocracy pre-French Revolution, it's also common practice for Italian immigrants in America (who tend to be very proud of their fig trees).

Also...bigger isn't always better for fruit trees. You prune them for a very good reason. And that is...for the fruit to ripen, it needs sunlight. And so, you prune the branches to keep the tree open, not dense, so all the fruit can get plenty of light. One more extreme version of this is espalier, where you prune and train the tree to grow flat against a wall. This is not only space-saving, but can also prolong the growing season (as the wall traps the heat from the sun). So, yes, elves would definitely prune their trees as good stewards interested in improving the life of the tree and its fruit production. What they might *not* do is train the trees into ornamental topiary shapes, but into more natural ones that achieve the same effect. No one would bat an eye if the elves had trellises with grapevines creating arbors, would they? So why not do that with pear and apple trees as well?

https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/edible/fruits/pear/how-to-espalier-a-pear-tree.htm

 

[Haerangil]

In theory the closest climate zone in our world would be western ireland i guess...
but we can be sure, if ulmo made that valley, then he magically created it in a way so it is fertile and can sustain a large populance and still have nice sunny days too...

 

[MithLuin]

Heh, I've gotten sunburnt in Western Ireland, so I assure you they do indeed have some sunny days! (It's just that all of them, for the entire year, were apparently during the week I was visiting...seriously, it only rained once while I was there.)

Western coast of Ireland in the midsummer sunlight:


But yes, I would expect the climate to be mitigated in some way, so it's milder than you might expect for the latitude. But it's definitely not so mild as to have the growing season of Florida or southern California or the Mediterranean or anything like that.

We don't have to give the elves of Gondolin greenhouses just so they can feed themselves. But they can certainly be using agricultural tricks to extend the growing season or get a more bounteous crop. Regardless, pruning fruit trees is something you do in any climate - the style of pruning is specific to the type of fruit tree and the particular needs for that plant, but it's part of caring for them to prune them.

Back to Nick's apartment tower - the emphasis on outdoor spaces and balconies and growing things seems good to me. There is also a communal living arrangement suggested here - no kitchens in the individual living quarters, so there must be a central kitchen/dining hall where they gather for meals. So, while most of Gondolin might be more spacious villas, in the areas like this we could expect more space-premium agriculture.

As for the structural integrity of that tower supporting trees growing in it, I will point out that stone can take a lot of load before it's an issue, and the biggest risk would likely be the tree roots getting into the stone blocks of the tower (or the pipes) and disrupting things.

 

[Octoburn]

Listening to the last session again recently, I had an idea about Gondolin. Cory's emphasis on his preference for the standing/running water inside the city, as well as some of the art posted here reminded me of Atlantis. I know; Tolkien's Atlantis is Numenor. Consider: Atlantis was founded by Poseidon, Turgon was led by Ulmo to build Gondolin. Atlantis fell due to pride and arrogance; Turgon.

So, what if Gondolin was designed similar to Atlantis' layout? It kind of already is, being circular and composed of concentric circles, but we could use similar layouts to these, but with smaller waterways.

 

[Rhiannon]

Listening to the last session again recently, I had an idea about Gondolin. Cory's emphasis on his preference for the standing/running water inside the city, as well as some of the art posted here reminded me of Atlantis. I know; Tolkien's Atlantis is Numenor. Consider: Atlantis was founded by Poseidon, Turgon was led by Ulmo to build Gondolin. Atlantis fell due to pride and arrogance; Turgon.

So, what if Gondolin was designed similar to Atlantis' layout? It kind of already is, being circular and composed of concentric circles, but we could use similar layouts to these, but with smaller waterways.

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Honestly, I'm really not in favor of that design. The Silmarillion says, "Turgon appointed its name to be Ondolinde ... the Rock of the Music of Water, for there were fountains upon the hill." In "The Fall of Gondolin" from The Book of Lost Tales mentions that there are "threadlike waterfalls seeking the plain from the fountains of Amon Gwareth," and describes some of the city as follows:

"Now the streets of Gondolin were paved with stone and wide, kerbed with marble, and fair houses and courts amid gardens of bright flowers were set about the ways, and many towers of great slenderness and beauty builded of white marble and carved most marvelously rose to the heaven. Squares there were lit with fountains and the home of birds that sang amid the branches of their aged trees, but of all these the greatest was that place where stood the king's palace, and the tower thereof was the loftiest in the city, and the fountains that played before the doors shot twenty fathoms and seven in the air and fell in a singing rain of crystal: therein did the sun glitter splendidly by day, and the moon most magically shimmered by night."

I think waterworks are an integral part of Gondolin, but they should be slender and elegant and musical. I don't think there should be nearly that much standing water.